Ships Can we PLEASE have the Panther Clipper? PLEAAAASE? Yes?

Dear Frontier,
I am playing this game since 1985 for the trading.
Yet in 2018 the maximum I can load are a bout 728 units in my tiny Imperial Cutter.

Can we PLEASE get a huge BRICK IN SPACE like the Panther Clipper?

If you don't like to give us that, how about another ugly, low speed, badly maneuverable HUGE ship with 2000+ units to trade?
Yes?

And what about transport drones we could buy? Flying on our Hull like Mynoks, being able to hold 2 units each?
Good idea, frontier?

Or the possibility to replace hardpoints and life-support areas with tiny 2+ crago units if we are stupid enough to dare to do it?
Like: "Look at this idiot, he replaced his hard points with racks!"

Why not?

It would be awesome!
 
Had that one in First Encounters, it was well stupenduously nice ship. Capable of outfighting itself from nearly any situation and still had huuge cargo load.
 
The Panther Clipper is a bit o a problem child when it comes to adding it to ED. It was arguably the best ship in FE2 and FFE, being capable of sporting strengths of ridiculous shield, the most powerful weaponry in the game, and still having room for a sizable amount of cargo. There are no ships currently in ED that come anywhere close to achieving what the Panther Clipper could in FE2 and FFE, and for game balance purposes the Panther Clipper probably won't have the nearly same capabilities in ED as it did in its previous iterations.

Basically, it seems to me like FDev is afraid of releasing the Panther Clipper and having everyone who played FE2 or FFE be disappointed with it. There just isn't an easy way to balance the ship to meet everyone's expectations without making every other ship in the game obsolete for trading and combat.

I never played FE2 or FFE and I want to see the Panther Clipper in the game as much as everyone else, but at the same time I don't want a ship that ends up being an 'I win' button.




Edit: that said, the closest thing we have to the FE2/FFE Panther Clipper in terms of offensive/defensive capability while still having a a decent cargo capacity would be a trade cutter/vette armed to the teeth and with a 6A shield with 6+ boosters. Both ships are probably faster and more agile than the Panther Clipper would be.




My best guess on what the Panther Clipper would be able to do in-game puts its maximum cargo capacity at no more than ~1000 tons. The 2100 tons of cargo figure that keeps popping up is by no means accurate, as much of that space is required to fit some of the ship's key components. If we are going to follow the "intended" ship build philosophy of ED with a FFE Panther Clipper, we are going to want to mount the a decently sized hyperdrive, fill all of the weapon hardpoints (4 + 8 missiles) and add enough fuel to make several max range jumps.

Let's start with the class 8 hyperdrive. It comes standard with the ship, has a mass of 700 tons, and uses up to 81 tons of fuel per jump. Taking into consideration that most/all dedicated traders in ED can make 5-6 (or more) max range jumps on their main fuel tank, I would say it is reasonable to expect to carry around 400-500T of fuel in our hypothetical Panther Clipper. Even if we only add enough fuel for 3 max range jumps, will will still only have ~1150 tons of space for weapons and other things that would be considered 'optional internals' in ED.

For weapons, the ones that everyone is so fond of are the small/large plasma accelerators which have a mass of 500/900 tons respectively. Admittedly, these are a bit overkill considering that in most cases a 75 ton 20MW beam laser (or 4 of them) is more than adequate. Missiles have a mass of 1t each, meaning that we can probably disregard these.

Effectively, once you have fitted a hyperdrive, fuel, and weapons that can actually kill an attacker in a reasonable amount of time, you will probably have somewhere between 850-1050 tons of free space depending on exactly what your weapon loadout is. This remaining space would be used for cargo, shield generators, and any other odds and ends that you want to throw on as well (i.e. the 'optional internals').




TL;DR: If/when we get the Panther Clipper, don't expect it to have over 2000 tons of cargo space. Ship outfitting has changed since FE2/FFE, expect the design of the Panther Clipper to have changed as well.
 
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TL;DR: If/when we get the Panther Clipper, don't expect it to have over 2000 tons of cargo space. Ship outfitting has changed since FE2/FFE, expect the design of the Panther Clipper to have changed as well.

A good example how the Open Game ruined the gameplay for solo.
On the other hand you could make the Panther a brick in space without any maneuverability.
Could work if you are willing to take the risk.

OR separate solo/open game.
 
A good example how the Open Game ruined the gameplay for solo.
On the other hand you could make the Panther a brick in space without any maneuverability.
Could work if you are willing to take the risk.

OR separate solo/open game.

My basic idea of what the Panther Clipper could be involves it being slower and less maneuverable than a T9, while having much better defences. Think iCutter that trades all of its speed for more cargo space, armour and potential damage with turrets.

It would likely end up with 8 utility slots, tons of armour, good base shields, 4 medium and 4 large hardpoints all optimized for turrets (poor hardpoint convergence but with excellent fields of fire). It would not have any huge hardpoints since there are (currently) no huge turreted weapons. For optional internals, something like:
  • 2x Size 8
  • 2x Size 7
  • 1x Size 6
  • 1x Size 5
  • 1x Size 4
  • 2x Size 3
would give ~900T of cargo space. This should be more than enough to mount a shield generator and STILL have more cargo space than an unshielded cutter or T9. You could probably even add a few more mid-range (size 4-6) compartments to mount a few more components or carry even more cargo. Heck, you could probably even slap on a mil slot or 2 for more armour.

Basically, it would be slow, turn like a brick, be able to tank lots of damage, dish out a decent amount of damage in return, all while carrying a ridiculous amount of cargo.

Would something like that work for you, or do need more cargo space?
 
>would give ~900T of cargo space.

Not enough space. I would never switch from my 728 Cutter to the Panther then while the cutter is highly combative.

If we had a real solo game all this would not have to be discussed by the way.

Anyway: I would love to have at least 1500+ cargo. Maybe even a special gimmick only the panther has like an extra second shield generator or a separate transport/landing ship inside the panther.

The maneuverability should be the lowest. Far worse than anything we have right now.
And if you decide to make the Panther secure via shields and armor your maneuverability should be even worse.

The main problem is that Frontier entirely neglected the trading aspect and all profit still ranges to a maximum of 6000 no matter where you trade and what you trade. And since rare or valuable goods are available in only minimum quantities we gonne need a bigger ship now.
 
Personally, make it around 250M, give it a 1200 cargo with a shield (C7 should be a minimum size) and give it a ton of smaller hardpoints (Mostly C1/2) Make it feel like a tanker/carrier. Maybe even a special gimmick that means that you can have 2 fighter bays and two pilots, who knows? Should feel like a carrier- Incredibly heavy (90 m/s max speed and 120 boost?), slow, dull, but with a massive payout if piloted properly. Not a true multipurpose, but we all know those people who try and manage to troll in combat T9s, so give it huge negatives for huge positives!
 
>would give ~900T of cargo space.

Not enough space. I would never switch from my 728 Cutter to the Panther then while the cutter is highly combative.

If we had a real solo game all this would not have to be discussed by the way.

Anyway: I would love to have at least 1500+ cargo. Maybe even a special gimmick only the panther has like an extra second shield generator or a separate transport/landing ship inside the panther.

The maneuverability should be the lowest. Far worse than anything we have right now.
And if you decide to make the Panther secure via shields and armor your maneuverability should be even worse.

The main problem is that Frontier entirely neglected the trading aspect and all profit still ranges to a maximum of 6000 no matter where you trade and what you trade. And since rare or valuable goods are available in only minimum quantities we gonne need a bigger ship now.

I'm going to say it now, 1500+ tons of cargo will not happen. The best you could do in FE2 and FFE was 1400 tons before fuel, shields, weapons, etc....

I'm still not sure what you are talking about when you mention how "open game ruined solo gameplay". What do the three modes have to do with with the slot based outfitting in ED vs the volumetric outfitting in FE2 and FFE? Could you please enlighten me here?

I agree that the Panther Clipper should have the lowest speed and maneuverability. Adding shields in most cases will actually improve your speed and maneuverability with a full load of cargo, since shields are lighter than cargo (the notable exception is prismatics). Adding more armour (bulkheads) will add more mass, but adding HRPs/MRPs will actually make you lighter with a full load. The trade off with adding shields and HRPs/MRPs is not mass, it is capacity. If you want to have more shields or armour, you need to be prepared to sacrifice some cargo for it. That is the trade off in ED.

I don't know how true what you are saying about trade profits is, but I'll take your word on it for now.

Personally, make it around 250M, give it a 1200 cargo with a shield (C7 should be a minimum size) and give it a ton of smaller hardpoints (Mostly C1/2) Make it feel like a tanker/carrier. Maybe even a special gimmick that means that you can have 2 fighter bays and two pilots, who knows? Should feel like a carrier- Incredibly heavy (90 m/s max speed and 120 boost?), slow, dull, but with a massive payout if piloted properly. Not a true multipurpose, but we all know those people who try and manage to troll in combat T9s, so give it huge negatives for huge positives!

1400T hull would insure that a size 7 shield generator is the minimum. Given that the mass of A-rated bulkheads is given by 15% of the ship's hull mass, military/reactive/mirrored bulkheads would have a mass of 210T.

1200T of cargo for 250M seems reasonable, especially when you consider the lack of speed compared to the ~200M Cutter.

Having a ton of hardpoints is more or less what I was going for, but I went with size 2/3 instead of size 1/2 because the damage output of small turrets is so pitifully bad. If you are making a ship as slow and sluggish as the Panther Clipper, turrets become a necessity if you want to do any meaningful amount of damage, especially if your opponent is capable of not flying in a straight line. Small turrets are just about useless here because of their poor damage output. They really only become useful with engineer special effects (I'm not even going to touch that can of worms), but these could just as easily be added to medium or large turrets and be just as if not more effective.

I disagree with giving the Panther Clipper a 'special gimmick', be it a second fighter bay, second shield generator, etc... simply because it would increase dev time and likely create a whole slew of balancing issues.

As for the people who troll in combat T9s, if they want to try the same thing in the Panther Clipper, more power to them. It will likely be a lot trickier to do, but the potential of landing a full salvo of PAs would probably make up for this. As you said, "a massive payout if piloted properly" :D
 
I'm still not sure what you are talking about when you mention how "open game ruined solo gameplay". What do the three modes have to do with with the slot based outfitting in ED vs the volumetric outfitting in FE2 and FFE? Could you please enlighten me here?
Yes, I made a thread in the section "modes of Elite" where I explain that the Open Game demands that there MUST NOT be certain aspects of a solo game that would be so much fun to have.
For example: we must not have a Panther that could have (like in Elite 2 or 3) virtually indestructible shields.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/444079-Make-SOLO-a-stand-alone-game!

1200T of cargo for 250M seems reasonable, especially when you consider the lack of speed compared to the ~200M Cutter.

Yes, why not? Maybe even a 1400 cargo for 500 Mio?

It would repay quickly with Battle Weapon delivery missions!

I have an idea! GREAT IDEA! Make it 3 versions of the panther for the public! Expensive, long range, high capacity trading = the 500. Mio. Version with 1400t and only tiny hardpoints, the mid range, balanced, more battlepower version and the defensive, smaller version for 250 mio.

Good idea?
 
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Yes, I made a thread in the section "modes of Elite" where I explain that the Open Game demands that there MUST NOT be certain aspects of a solo game that would be so much fun to have.
For example: we must not have a Panther that could have (like in Elite 2 or 3) virtually indestructible shields.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/444079-Make-SOLO-a-stand-alone-game!

You do make a good point in the thread. Having a single player game means that you can add a lot of features and not have to consider multiplayer balance. A single player game is also extensively more mod-able, meaning that you can add or remove features from the game with relative ease. I would absolutely buy a single player version of ED, but with the fairly large amount of resources required to simulate the galaxy, I don't foresee one in the near future.

That said, you still didn't answer my question. What do the three modes of ED have to do with slot-based outfitting?

Yes, why not? Maybe even a 1400 cargo for 500 Mio?

It would repay quickly with Battle Weapon delivery missions!

I have an idea! GREAT IDEA! Make it 3 versions of the panther for the public! Expensive, long range, high capacity trading = the 500. Mio. Version with 1400t and only tiny hardpoints, the mid range, balanced, more battlepower version and the defensive, smaller version for 250 mio.

Good idea?

Make 2 versions of the Panther Clipper with different amounts of cargo, armour, shields, and weapons? I think you mean bigger versions of the T9 and T10. I'm not opposed to the overall idea, but it will probably need a fair amount of work to balance both versions with respect to the existing ships and each other. If you want to lobby FDev for 2 separate Panther Clippers more power to you, I just don't think that the Panther Clipper is a ship we should be demanding copy pastas of before we even have one.
 
Make four, a trade panther clipper, an explorer panther clipper and a passenger panther clipper, oh wait. A combat panther clipper.
And don't forget, make it so it lands on medium pads.
 
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