Cannons could certainly use a buff

[Snarfbuckle]

My main beef with cannons are not fire rate but rather projectile speed.

It's damn slow when trying to hit a target that moves at a MINIMUM 900 km/h

S1 Cannons have a 1000 m/s projectile speed. That's the equivalent of the Bofors 40mm WW2 cannon.
The Bofors 40mm cannon had a refire rate of 4 rounds per second. The S1 Cannon has 2 rounds per second.

Now, i get that game balance is an issue but keep in mind that this is the SMALL cannon. The S2 is 875m per second, also WW2 speeds.
Let's take the S2 in comparison to the WW2 German 8.8cm cannon, about TWICE the size of the Bofors 40mm. It had a shell velocity of 840 m/s.
It also had a 0.00 rounds per minute so it's a little slower.

Here's the kicker though, the fire rate of cannons in Elite are damn abysmal since both S1 and S2 are equally slow.


So we essentially have WW2 shells in a game where we have ships that move at about (base speed) which is 900 kilometers per hour.

Now, yes, the fastest airplane in WW2 was the Supermarine Spitfire and had a top speed of 763 km/h so there is that.

But remember we are talking about BASE speed. Our ships have no issues going FAAR beyond that.

Now, with the abysmal refire rate and projectile speed puts the Cannon in a rather subpar spot.

Proposition:

- Increase Fire Rate to S1: 4 rounds per second / S2: 3 Rounds per second / S3: 2 and so on...
- Increase projectile speed to 1300 / 1100 / 900 / 750 (Large gun already has 750)

 

[C64Fan]

IMO cannons are fine, I use them regulary in PvP and sometimes PvE as well. Long Range mods are excellents combined with multicannons (OC) and still do good amounts of damage, especially when it comes to burst damage vs small targets.
However, I agree that they are a little limited due to their utterly low ammo pool. Top that up to around 200-250 and we'll be fine. Every tried a shock cannon? You run out of ammo before you can pierce prismatic shields ... with two large and fixed versions of them.

You should save the Shock Cannons for the hull, where they are most effective. At close range they can tear the hull to pieces in seconds. At longer ranges they are still quite effective and very accurate if you fire them slowly.

 

[Red Fox Four]

Cannons are garbage.

You have to twiddle and tweak so many things (engineering levels, special effects, type of mounts) and completely adjust your playstyle in combat to suit the cannons to make them 'work'.

There are plenty other weapons to use that are much better than <insert whichever purpose you intended for your cannons>.

Cannons can be decent and breaking the hull, but considering how close you need to fly to reliably hit and not waste shots you are far better off just using frag cannons instead.

I tried cannons, both small and large, engineered and vanilla and I have never been able to justify the hardpoints for cannons over other weapons.

Sure they look cool and sound cool, but honestly... looks and sound might work in some kinda fancy 35 second trailer, but it is pointless in actual combat.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

When I think of my C4 Gimbal Cannon with G5 LongRange w/High Yield... all I can come up with is :

- does as little as 2-4% damage to an unshielded Adder after a direct hit (takes 5-10 shots to hit a small target anyway)
- the C4 Gimbal jitters so bad it can't hit the proverbial stationary barn at 500m at times even with its improved projectile speed; it can easily miss large Ships at 600-700m range even if they're stationary
- is generally so ineffective I'd rather try to ram the Target
- any other hardpoint (regardless of size) with any other Weapon easily deals more DPS

The only reason I haven't junked my C4 Cannons yet is that I can't be bothered to Engineer me another C4 Weapon right now.
But technically, I consider that C4 Cannon hardpoint basically useless.

Once those are removed, no Ship in my fleet will have any Cannons equipped anymore and I don't plan to go back.
I know there's some fancy specials for it but I have no use for them.

 

[Morbad]

When I think of my C4 Gimbal Cannon with G5 LongRange w/High Yield... all I can come up with is

High yield has a 50% damage penalty and is almost useless against currently bugged NPCs that all but ignore damaged modules.

Long range is also not well suited to gimbals, as you've noticed.

 

[Krieger]

The biggest problem with cannons IMO is the fact that it can be hard to see or hear when you score a hit. They need a bigger BOOM, more visible trajectory and/or more violent graphics when they hit.

Exactly! Since their sound was improved into a more realistic loud bang, benign visual effects upon hitting a target is my only complaint left. I really like cannons.

 

[Krieger]

All cannons have ever needed is higher velocity.

Instead we got a lot of changes to them that continually miss the point...and we got Engineers, which offered velocity increases across the board and did nothing about the specific core flaw as pertains to cannons.

It's frustrating, to be certain; such a seemingly simple thing and yet it's just...never been successfully tended to.

It's best to avoid high angle deflection shots with cannons. Hit probability is low in those situations. It's better to boost behind the target to reduce deflection angle (or take a head-on shot but you must be quick then). If you have mixed cannon sizes (muzzle velocities) and the HUD shows two aimpoints far apart, that is a clear indication deflection angle is too high.

 

[Old Duck]

I use two medium gimballed cannons along with a fixed beam laser (for stripping shields) on my iCourier, and I quite love them. They are engineered for high piercing, so they do significantly more damage to larger ships than MCs, and the medium cannons actually look "cool" on Imperial ships. The large cannons, on the other hand, always felt weak for their size. Also, aren't large cannon shots slower, making misses more common?

 

[Crimson Kaim]

You should save the Shock Cannons for the hull, where they are most effective. At close range they can tear the hull to pieces in seconds. At longer ranges they are still quite effective and very accurate if you fire them slowly.

You are happy to test shock cannons against my hulltank Dropship. I bet you will run out of ammo before you grind through it (unless you have a Type 10 with 9 of these).

 

[C64Fan]

You are happy to test shock cannons against my hulltank Dropship. I bet you will run out of ammo before you grind through it (unless you have a Type 10 with 9 of these).

Just one 3C Shock Cannon has 181 DPS against hull, and a 2D has 130 . If you get in close and fire 3 large Shock Cannons that’s 543 DPS! Granted that’s if every shot hit the target, but against large ships it isn’t unrealistic.

 

[V'larr]

It's best to avoid high angle deflection shots with cannons. Hit probability is low in those situations. It's better to boost behind the target to reduce deflection angle (or take a head-on shot but you must be quick then). If you have mixed cannon sizes (muzzle velocities) and the HUD shows two aimpoints far apart, that is a clear indication deflection angle is too high.

That's great, when your target is stationary and lacking in all six degrees of motion.

That ain't the case the vast, vast, vast majority of the time.

 

[Krieger]

That's great, when your target is stationary and lacking in all six degrees of motion.

That ain't the case the vast, vast, vast majority of the time.

I was not talking about stationary targets. The trick is to make your own ship move in a direction that compensates the movement of the target. I admit that is easier with NPCs (they are predictable) than with commanders.

I have a Chieftain with fixed cannons for main armament, 2 large, 3 small (+ medium railgun+feedback cascade to deny shield cells). I destroy Thargoid scouts with it. They are manoeuvrable, fast and small. The hardest targets for cannons but a lot of fun.

 

[bladebss]

More ammo would be nice so there damage potential is closer to multicannons.
The velocity thing i am not shure on as its a quirk to cannons i kinda like.. on one hand i want all my cannons to fire at the same velocity as mixing classes would be nice with out having to fiddle with force shell and long range grade to get them the same and often limmiting what i want to do with them. (Small ships dont want force cannon on them as it make the ship further away and your trying to stay under there guns.)

But i can also apreciate that its a qirk of cannons but they need more bonus to justify it. So if cannons need anything i think just more ammo would make it ok. We dont want op cannons. But lets face it multicannons are op as hell so we could probably have double ammo and 50% more velocity and still be competitive with multis

(Side note.. i think this ship has sailed along with many others like it we may simply be wasting forum space buy now.. sigh)

 

[Red Fox Four]

It's best to avoid high angle deflection shots with cannons. Hit probability is low in those situations. It's better to boost behind the target to reduce deflection angle (or take a head-on shot but you must be quick then). If you have mixed cannon sizes (muzzle velocities) and the HUD shows two aimpoints far apart, that is a clear indication deflection angle is too high.

If you are already flying to get close and get a "broadside" shot on your target, i.e. where the largest surface area of your target is exposed, to reduce the probability of a missed cannon shot then you are literally dogfighting in exactly the same fashion you would be when using frag cannons.

And in close quarters in your face combat where your goal is to expose the largest surface area of your opponent before pulling the trigger the frag cannons are far superior to the cannons anyways.

So why not just use frags in that case?

Because cannons have more range? Range means missed shots, so you close distance before pulling trigger anyhow.

I tried a fully cannon fitted and fully frag-cannon fitted Chieftain, and the frag cannon setup is vastly superior. It shreds most shields and absolutely wrecks hull. I've taken down everything from Sidewinders to Cutters with the frag-cannon setup, from fully shielded to zero hull, and the frags are simply superior in every way to cannons.

I honestly don't know why anyone would use cannons other than some personal preference for cannons and thus wanting to justify the use of cannons.

Low ammo, relatively low damage, high miss probability (especially on small targets) makes them undesirable.

And sure, some argue you can engineer the cannons. But that doesn't make cannons any better since, newflash, you can engineer frag cannons and other weapons as well.

Double-shot or High Capacity frag cannons with drag munitions, corrosive and incendiary shells will take down any ship much faster and more efficiently than cannons ever will.

 

[Krieger]

If you are already flying to get close and get a "broadside" shot on your target, i.e. where the largest surface area of your target is exposed, to reduce the probability of a missed cannon shot then you are literally dogfighting in exactly the same fashion you would be when using frag cannons.
<snip>...
I honestly don't know why anyone would use cannons other than some personal preference for cannons and thus wanting to justify the use of cannons.

I agree personal preference is a big factor. I like cannons because I like the subject of gunnery and the challenge to make cannons effective in ED's gamey combat model. I've tried frag cannons too but didn't like to have to get so very close to the target. I try to score hits with cannons at ranges of 1-2 secs flight time (less for small targets btw). Very satisfying to see a pirate in his gutsy FAS blow up 2 km away trying to run from me. With engineering It's easy to make every weapon OP against NPCs so I limit engineering to overcharged grade 1 that gives the same damage as premium synthesized munitions.

I don't mind the limited ammo. I don't like hanging out in RES or CZ for hours anyway. When the ammo is gone, I'm going home (and there's also synthesis).

 

[NecasekO]

I quite like cannons, both fixed and gimballed. Among the ships I regularly fly, I have a large fixed cannon on my DBX, 4 fixed cannons on my Challenger (1x large, 3x small), 4 large gimballed cannons on my Type-10, and 2 on my Cutter. All my cannons are G5 overcharged, mostly with autoloader special effect.

Cannons do a lot of damage per shot with almost zero distributor draw, and there is no firing delay. Because of the slow fire rate, it's not necessary to keep aiming at targets, it's more about waiting for the right time to shoot. Once you learn when to shoot and when it would be a waste of ammo, cannons are quite effective and ammunition supply is not an issue.

That said, it's important to mix cannons with some other weapons (I prefer lasers) as it's pretty much impossible to hit SLFs and some small ships.

In the end, for me cannons are simply more fun to use than other weapons and pulling off difficult shots is very satisfying, something I can't experience with a MC.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Dunno, why use cannons when you can have PA's with absolute damage and amazeballing piercing.
In my opinion, the absulte damage needs to go on plasmas, it makes no sense to exist.

All we need is a new special effect.

Magnetic Cannon: As long as you aim in the right direction it will never miss

Except for the Anaconda, because some people say the hull is made out of magic fairy dust.

if it were, glittering chaff would attrct anacondas to us.

 

[Conch]

Only gripe ive got with cannons is that the differant sizes have differant shotspeeds, making it useless to have multiple sizes cannons on a ship.

 

[Speedcuffs]

Well, I've got a Corvette with 2 huge cannon sat in Diaguandri.
Looks like it's gonna be staying there.
Can't see any point in wasting mats on it.

 

[Conch]

Well, I've got a Corvette with 2 huge cannon sat in Diaguandri.
Looks like it's gonna be staying there.
Can't see any point in wasting mats on it.

forceshell cannons are great fun tho.