Cannons need ammo Badly.

[madmann135]

I have been wondering why Multi-cannons and LASER cannons are the staple in Elite dangerous, I did some math and came to a disturbing conclusion. Multi-cannons and LASER cannons are combat weapons (weapons of war), and all other cannons are dueling weapons.
These are the numbers if the damage per magazine and damage for reserve ammunition was the same across the board.


Class 1 Multi-Cannons: Damage 2, Magazine 90, Reserve 2100

Stock - Class 1 Cannon: Damage 5, Magazine 5, Reserve 100
Rebalanced - Class 1 Cannon: Damage 5, Magazine 36, Reserve 840.

Stock - Class 1 Railgun: Damage 6, Magazine 1, Reserve 30.
Rebalanced - Class 1 Railgun: Damage 6, Magazine 30, Reserve 700.

Stock - Class 2 Plasma Accelerator: Damage 7, Magazine 5, Reserve 100.
Rebalanced - Class 2 Plasma Accelerator: Damage 7, Magazine 26, Reserve 600.

Stock - Class 1 Fragmentation Cannon: Damage 2, Magazine 3, Reserve 30.
Rebalanced - Class 1 Fragmentation Cannon: Damage 2, Magazine 90, Reserve 2100.

I tried Cannons, I refuse to use shotguns (I hate getting that close in a fight), I have yet to try the Railgun, cannot afford the plasma accelerator. I really want to use cannons, they were fun but I run out of ammo to quickly for them to be of any use.
Why are all cannons minus the Multi-cannon dueling weapons? In a duel you are facing one opponent, combat tactics change considerably if you are going into combat against multiple opponents.
The Multi-cannons have the one thing that makes them effective and efficient fighting weapons, and that is ammunition. In a fight I would be surprised if someone can hit their target 100% of the time, with a duel it is theoretically probable, in combat, no.
In combat I will be very generous and say that the player can get a 50% accuracy rating, this will reduce the ammo on target (my absolute best is 30%). This also has the unfortunate result of making all weapons other than multi-cannons and LASERs into gimmick weapons. Limiting the thing Elite Dangerous is pushing as one of its selling points, customization.
How can this be remedied? The easy way would be to reduce ammunition cost for the other cannon types and increase the size of their reserves and magazines.
I also believe that the power requirements for expanding gas propelled weapons and missiles are insane. Said weapons come with propellant attached to the projectile, I could easily go into a long rant on how the weapons of Elite Dangerous do not make much sense, and I already have, but I digress.
Long story short the cannon type weapons of Elite dangerous, minus Multi-cannons need significantly more ammunition, unless they are intended to be "garage queens."

EDIT - Update:
The first comparison was to show the difference between ammo capacity and damage potential. This is to show a believable comparison using weight as the constant (a weight of 1000 KG / 2204 lb / 1 metric ton). I also made a cartage for the weapons

Ammo reserve - 1000 KG (2204 lb, 1 metric ton)
C1 Multi-cannon: 25mm caseless. 491.7 grams (1.084 lb) ammo - 2033 max reserve.
C1 Cannons: 40mm Caseless. 2014grams (4.44 lb) ammo - 496 max reserve.
(*1) C1 Fragment cannon: 568 max reserve
(*2) C1 Railgun: 60mm slug. 4302 grams (7.5 lb ammo) - 294 max reserve.

Ammunition Magazine - 5% max reserve
Multi-Cannons - 102 rounds
Cannons - 25
Fragment Cannons - 28
Railgun - 15


(*1) I am not well versed in shotguns, so I am comparing 5.56x45mm to the 12 Gauge, and using the result as a basis for comparison of 25mm caseless and the shotgun.
12 Gauge = 670 grains
5.56x45mm = 187 grains

(*2) This is tricky but done this way for balance. Using what I know I came to this conclusion for an actual result. There is math involved but long story short, I am using the same variable for max capacity, and that is weight, but using kinetic energy as the comparison.
25mm caseless: 3797.2 grains @ 3300 fps, kinetic energy = 91,803 ft-lbs
C1 railgun projected kinetic energy 275,409 ft-lbs.
Railgun velocity = 8202 FPS. Railgun projected projectile weight = 1844 grains. Projectile projected caliber = 20mm.
Railgun projectile + Sabot = 2030 grains. Max capacity 7600 rounds.
Considering the real world advantages to railguns, this number is believable. I will not go into detail as to why, because that will take up a more time.

 

[CMDR Bungle]

I agree that Cannons, Frags and Railguns all need more ammo, although I don't think you could put them up as much as you have here - it would just end up unbalanced in the other direction.

The ammo stores on these all just need a little bit of love.

Alternatively why not have ammo stores available to buy as an internal compartment similar to cargo holds, but instead of being able to load cargo you can just fill it with spare ammo in the munitions screen on base.

 

[madmann135]

I agree that Cannons, Frags and Railguns all need more ammo, although I don't think you could put them up as much as you have here - it would just end up unbalanced in the other direction.

The ammo stores on these all just need a little bit of love.

Alternatively why not have ammo stores available to buy as an internal compartment similar to cargo holds, but instead of being able to load cargo you can just fill it with spare ammo in the munitions screen on base.

I agree that if the ammo was as high as indicated in the rebalanced areas it would be unbalanced but I intended for the rebalanced area to be a demonstration of how unbalanced the current ammunition system is.

 

[CMDR Bungle]

I see what you mean. I really enjoyed playing with cannons starting out, had three on my eagle - but there not up to much with such low ammo storage as it stands.

 

[Aleksej]

We've already been there. And current values are perfect.

Rail guns had unlimited ammo and these were the only weapons used back then.
All cannons had 2100 rounds and you did not need to replenish it at all as it required a lot of time to run out of ammo with such ammunition reserves.

Give rail guns ammunition of 700 slugs and everyone is going to use only them.

 

[madmann135]

We've already been there. And current values are perfect.

Rail guns had unlimited ammo and these were the only weapons used back then.
All cannons had 2100 rounds and you did not need to replenish it at all as it required a lot of time to run out of ammo with such ammunition reserves.

Give rail guns ammunition of 700 slugs and everyone is going to use only them.

I have a question then. If the ammunition values are "perfect" then why does a majority default to the Multi-cannons and laser cannons combination as their default load out (especially for bounty hunting)?

I used cannons but switched to multi-cannons because I ran out of ammunition much to quickly.

What I am trying to say is that the weapons need a re balance (except for multi-cannons, and missile type) when it comes to ammo as multi-cannons are highly favored because they can engage in repeated engagements.

 

[Iskariot]

I have a question then. If the ammunition values are "perfect" then why does a majority default to the Multi-cannons and laser cannons combination as their default load out (especially for bounty hunting)?

I used cannons but switched to multi-cannons because I ran out of ammunition much to quickly.

What I am trying to say is that the weapons need a re balance when it comes to ammo as multi-cannons are highly favored because they can engage in repeated engagements.

I am not sure about the need for an ammo rebalance, but you are indeed right; I personally never use cannons or rail guns, because I feel the lack of ammo makes them too much of a bother. Some players use them though, but I guess it is a small minority.
It is totally impractical to take cannons and railguns into combat zones or when bounty hunting at resource extraction sites. Currently I see no use for these weapons myself. I have tried them out but they are very ineffective compared to lasers and multicannons.

 

[CMDR Pfo]

I've used cannons, they're great but they do run out of ammo too fast. I do think the base cannon needs an ammo increase. OR.... what about a module that I could fit on my ship to increase ammo capacity.... That would give me interesting fitting options.

 

[madmann135]

I was curious as to how to balance the ammo capacity and I came across a simple yet realistic approach, and that is Weight.
Being the individual I am I went to make a cartage for each weapon, give it weight and compare the weapons. I say this is believable because Weight is a very common factor in deciding how much ammo can be carried.
For expanding gas propelled weapons I used the basis that 50% of the ammo weight is projectile and 50% of the ammo weight is the propellent.

This was done to give an idea of what could be done.

Ammo reserve - 1000 KG (2204 lb, 1 metric ton)
C1 Multi-cannon: 25mm caseless. 491.7 grams (1.084 lb) ammo - 2033 max reserve.
C1 Cannons: 40mm Caseless. 2014grams (4.44 lb) ammo - 496 max reserve.
(*1) C1 Fragment cannon: 568 max reserve
(*2) C1 Railgun: 60mm slug. 4302 grams (7.5 lb ammo) - 294 max reserve.

Ammunition Magazine - 5% max reserve
Multi-Cannons - 102 rounds
Cannons - 25
Fragment Cannons - 28
Railgun - 15


(*1) I am not well versed in shotguns, so I am comparing 5.56x45mm to the 12 Gauge, and using the result as a basis for comparison of 25mm caseless and the shotgun.
12 Gauge = 670 grains
5.56x45mm = 187 grains

(*2) This is tricky but done this way for balance. Using what I know I came to this conclusion for an actual result. There is math involved but long story short, I am using the same variable for max capacity, and that is weight, but using kinetic energy as the comparison.
25mm caseless: 3797.2 grains @ 3300 fps, kinetic energy = 91,803 ft-lbs
C1 railgun projected kinetic energy 275,409 ft-lbs.
Railgun velocity = 8202 FPS. Railgun projected projectile weight = 1844 grains. Projectile projected caliber = 20mm.
Railgun projectile + Sabot = 2030 grains. Max capacity 7600 rounds.
Considering the real world advantages to railguns, this number is believable. I will not go into detail as to why, because that will take up a more time.

 

[Blastbeats]

What would make more sense, would be to have ammo storage containers that could be loaded into your ship, in place of cargo racks. They could be limited to C2 and C3 slots, and you would only be able to load one container per ship. So you would have to decide if you wanted a c2 slot load, or instead a c3 slot loaded.

C2 slots would be for things like Multicannons, and cannons. It would increase ammo reserves by maybe 50-100 rounds. C3 slots could be for rails, missiles, tops, etc. Those would increase Ammo by maybe an extra 10-20 rounds, depending on the weapon.

I understand that FD wants a balance between each weapon's capabilities, and how often you can fire it, but it just makes sense that if you can load cargo racks in your ship, and haul 100+ tons of cargo, why wouldn't you be able to just load that all with Ammo instead? Old WWII fighter planes used any extra space they had to belt feed their cannons, why wouldn't you be able to do that here?

I mean...even an extra 10 rounds for a rail gun is worth making your ship heavier and sacrificing an internal slot for. You can even make these containers super expensive. I would pay 1,000,000 credits just to have an extra 200 rounds of Multi Cannon ammo. Or an extra 20 rounds for both rail guns.

 

[Tryst]

We've already been there. And current values are perfect.

Rail guns had unlimited ammo and these were the only weapons used back then.
All cannons had 2100 rounds and you did not need to replenish it at all as it required a lot of time to run out of ammo with such ammunition reserves.

Give rail guns ammunition of 700 slugs and everyone is going to use only them.

I think you give too much credit to people's piloting abilities. Single shot and long reload are good if you're a superb pilot who can keep on target all the time. Otherwise the multi shot weapons are better because, as the OP said, you can hit 50% of the time. Also gimballed MC's are even better for those who are not so good pilots. With a fixed mount single shot weapon, you get one chance and can't afford to blow that chance because it's a long time before you get another and if the other pilot is good, you won't be able to stay on target that long.

In short, only the better pilots would go for the shotgun, the others would probably opt for the spray gun.

 

[xondk]

Cannon's feel like they could use a bit of tweaking, though I couldn't directly say where, if I had to guess, maybe a smidge more ammo in both stock and clip, like what max 5% though the main thing I think cannons ( and any slow firing weapon should have for that matter) is some way to know when it actually fires, since at least when I used them cannons weren't instant fire but had like half a second or such delay, having a 'spin up'?, and being able to see an indicator for such things as spin up or such, would be nice, maybe an ability to give weapons different colors rather then just the main hud color?
I think that would despite only being minor changes would substantially change the feel of the slower cannon.

 

[Lasse B.]

I've had a run with rail guns yesterday, and while they're great damage-wise they become a liability as soon as you have to kill tougher opponents or are faced with multiple weaker ones, even if you manage to make every single shot hit the target. And I'm strictly talking about the ammo reserve here. The rate of fire and charge up time are just perfect.

I'd suggest a number around 100 would be fine.

Perhaps as a general way to increase the ammo reserve the devs could implement ammo storage containers that could go into any of the internal compartment slots. Want more ammo? Which piece of your equipment are you willing to sacrifice for it?

 

[commander adam]

I don't find a problem with ammo size. Although I have identified your problem.You say "I refuse to get that close to fire" you've missed the point of a dog fight. You can't fore multi cannons from 1km out. It misses at least 50% of the time. Same with cannon. They are close range weapons. And they are super effective at 500km and closer. I use a cobra. With two beam lazer on small mounts. On medium mount one cannon and one multi cannon. I don't share your conclusion. The ammo is fine. I can take down an anaconda without running out of ammo. In short. Become a better pilot. Learn how to dog fight. The weapons you use require you to be very close to be effective

 

[Aleksej]

I think you give too much credit to people's piloting abilities. Single shot and long reload are good if you're a superb pilot who can keep on target all the time. Otherwise the multi shot weapons are better because, as the OP said, you can hit 50% of the time. Also gimballed MC's are even better for those who are not so good pilots. With a fixed mount single shot weapon, you get one chance and can't afford to blow that chance because it's a long time before you get another and if the other pilot is good, you won't be able to stay on target that long.

In short, only the better pilots would go for the shotgun, the others would probably opt for the spray gun.

I've already told you, we've already been there during early testing stages of the game. Those who were able to use these weapons proficiently always used only them and had significant advantage over those who could not use them. And you are wrong if you think that the number of people who were using rail guns or cannons was relatively small. It was just the opposite.

 

[AtheosisX]

We've already been there. And current values are perfect.

No they aren't.

 

[Komemiute]

I have a cobra Mk.III with some upgrades, not that much.
But I got 2 x Class two Cannons and 2 x Class one cannon.

I just destroyed a Python with around 20 bullets. Current amount is perfect. It IS a weapon though, that requires skill.

 

[madmann135]

Cannons are a skill weapon but at the same time not everyone has the skill to use them with such lethality.
Multi-cannons are a weapon that is in my opinion balanced to the point that it is boring. The range is good, the rate of fire is acceptable, the damage though weak does accumulate quickly
Fragment cannons are weapons that are best used when nearly point blank.
Railguns are sniper weapons. Strong single shot but difficult to use.

In addition fighting Medium class and large class ships are uncommon compared to fighting small class ships.

Looking at it from another perspective, the corporate perspective. Business men would want their product to sell, they would also figure out why their product is not selling well in comparison to competition.
Multi-cannons are general purpose weapons that can be used by rookies to experts alike. The other cannon types are limited in their use because they can not be taken on extended flights.

Fragment cannons, canons, and railguns are selective use weapons that require more skill and experience to use. I won't take cannons with me when I am bounty-hunting because I prefer to bounty-hunt until one of two things happen, I run out of ammo or I take to much damage. With multi-cannons one can hunt down (figuratively speaking) dozens of ships and collect a massive bounty. While the other Cannon types are best used for sorties against large ships, while at the same time swarms of smaller ships can quickly deplete the ammo of said weapon.

But lets change gears once again. Lets go on the theory that there is a pilot who has 100% accuracy and can use the weapons to their maximum.
C1 Multi-cannons = 2190 rounds at 2 damage results in 4380 points of damage.
C1 Cannons = 105 rounds at 5 damage results in 525 points of damage.
C1 Railguns = 31 rounds at 7 damage results in 217 points of damage.
C1 Fragment Cannons = 33 rounds at 2 damage results in 66 points of damage. This one is different due to not knowing how many rounds are fired per volley.

I've already told you, we've already been there during early testing stages of the game. Those who were able to use these weapons proficiently always used only them and had significant advantage over those who could not use them. And you are wrong if you think that the number of people who were using rail guns or cannons was relatively small. It was just the opposite.

I am sorry but isn't that the point? Work hard to develop skills in order to use better weapons more efficiently or low grade weapons better. ... this explains why all cannons minus multi-cannons are dueling weapons.
In FPS's it is said that "Everyone wants to be the sniper," because they get to use the big and powerful weapons but there are advantages and disadvantages to being a sniper. Yes you get a powerful single shot that can drop another in one hit but you have limited ammunition.

Lets compare Elite Dangerous to an FPS
Multi-Cannons = Assault rifle
Cannons = Battle Rifle
Fragment Cannon = Shotgun
Railgun = Sniper rifle.

Each weapon is best used for different reasons but the Assault rifle is always the entry weapon because you have the ability to spray and pray.
Battle Rifles are intermediate to expert weapons because a single shot does good damage but they tend to be semi-auto resulting in greater player focus.
Shotguns are for those that like to get up close and personal.
Sniper rifles are for those that prefer to offer support fire at a distance.

I have a cobra Mk.III with some upgrades, not that much.
But I got 2 x Class two Cannons and 2 x Class one cannon.

I just destroyed a Python with around 20 bullets. Current amount is perfect. It IS a weapon though, that requires skill.

That's nice, but how many consecutive Sidewinders can you destroy?

 

[CMDR Bungle]

I have a cobra Mk.III with some upgrades, not that much.
But I got 2 x Class two Cannons and 2 x Class one cannon.

I just destroyed a Python with around 20 bullets. Current amount is perfect. It IS a weapon though, that requires skill.

That's great and I commend you, but it still means that the cannons are only any use for going out and killing one or two targets and no use for conflict zones.

I'm not saying they should have thousands of rounds available, just more than there are now. What about a class 2 ammo hold that holds 100 rounds total. That would mean a Cobra with four cannons mounted would only carry an extra 25 rounds per cannon, and it's trading off a slot to do it.

 

[QziQza]

That's great and I commend you, but it still means that the cannons are only any use for going out and killing one or two targets and no use for conflict zones.

I'm not saying they should have thousands of rounds available, just more than there are now. What about a class 2 ammo hold that holds 100 rounds total. That would mean a Cobra with four cannons mounted would only carry an extra 25 rounds per cannon, and it's trading off a slot to do it.

its not really trading off a slot though is it? i tend to run with empty slots anyway.. better jump range, movement etc. while it would be nice to have extra ammo on board, i think the point being made is that if they introduced something extra, then everyone would opt for it. im not a fan of balance passes in competative games, if im honest, too many games go down that route, they balance things to death, removing the skill advantage in competative play. increasing ammo in this situation would be heading along that path, yes it would be cool for conflict zones and bounty hunting, but then it takes something away from dualing. besides, in conflict zones and bounty hunting, your beams and class2 multi are all you really need. i love that this game focuses more on players going down the route of selecting the right tool for the job, rather than just going for the biggest, loudest or brightest thing in the offering.