Can't have player to player commodity trade, how about p2p material trade?

[Stealthie]

The house in this analogy would be Elite Dangerous which we all share, so I don't think your rejoinder makes sense in this case. But the analogy is less important than the rest of my post which you could have responded to instead.

If the "house" is ED then I guess we'd first have to agree on whether it's flooded or not.

If there's a leaky pipe in your room then you might think the house is a wreck and so it's fine to treat it like a midden but you shouldn't be surprised if other occupants find your behaviour disagreeable.

Bottom line is, quite simply, that just because one thing's broken, that's no reason to accept other broken things, much less willfully break other things.

When your car tyre's got a puncture, do you try to get the puncture fixed or do you figure that you might as well just puncture all the other tyres as well?

 

[Schmack]

Really?

That's pretty disengenuous of you. I am sorely tempted to advise you to go look disengenuous up if you don't know what it means but then - this one is fairly sure you do - know what it means that is.

Nice try though...

No I am serious. Success for me means I found what I was looking for. At some stage in the game that's materials, at other stages that's ships and still at others it could be void opals or stations that pay out well or even distant planets with cool things to see.

Not sure what you consider success. If that means winning PvP battles, that's quite different than what I consider success.

 

[Schmack]

You're coming at this from the perspective that in-game trading is inherently bad in and of itself, then, which is not a perspective I share. I'm engaging with this topic on the basis that we all agree that there are valid and beneficial use cases for player to player trading but that we might not agree on the severity and significance of the downsides.

I don't think in-game trading is bad. If there's an "auction" though it would be no different than just having an auction for game generated things since there's no actual P2P exchanges. I quite like in game exchanges of stuff. I don't think FDev will sanction it though and I don't really care for module swapping between players.

The system being proposed bypasses a lot of in-game content. It would render much of it obsolete and we already have a lot of basically obsolete things as is (KWS anyone?).

If there is a benefit to allowing trading, and we are ALREADY paying the cost in the form of account sales (and I guess commodity trading), it doesn't make sense to argue against it unless you can demonstrate that there is going to be some additional cost which outweighs the benefit. It really doesn't matter whether something is sanctioned or not: if it's good we should encourage it, if it's bad we should try to reduce it, and if it's a mix of both we should weigh the pros and cons, and then decide whether we are willing to accept the cost or can tip the balance to be more favorable.

We are paying the cost for script kiddies as well.

What benefit would it have other than preventing people who want to PvP from needing to grind to get to the meta builds?

To massage your analogy a little: It would be like repealing prohibition on the basis that buying and selling alcohol isn't bad to begin with, and everyone's already doing it anyway whether it's legal or not.

So they should then sanction the selling of accounts to others and perhaps scripting as well?

The terms "good and bad" are to bifurcated for this discussion. The suggestions are desired/not desired.

 

[Kaocraft]

I don't think in-game trading is bad. If there's an "auction" though it would be no different than just having an auction for game generated things since there's no actual P2P exchanges. I quite like in game exchanges of stuff. I don't think FDev will sanction it though and I don't really care for module swapping between players.

The system being proposed bypasses a lot of in-game content. It would render much of it obsolete and we already have a lot of basically obsolete things as is (KWS anyone?).

We are paying the cost for script kiddies as well.

What benefit would it have other than preventing people who want to PvP from needing to grind to get to the meta builds?

So they should then sanction the selling of accounts to others and perhaps scripting as well?

The terms "good and bad" are to bifurcated for this discussion. The suggestions are desired/not desired.

It seems like we have obsolete things because Frontier is afraid to remove stuff from the game. Instead they add complimentary (or contradictory) systems which defeat, dilute, or subvert the purpose of an exiting system. I feel like if I had to pick one system that would benefit from being watered down into obsolescence, you couldn't pick a much better candidate than the materials system, especially if the tradeoff is greater player-player interaction and increased flexibility in how to approach progress in the game.

 

[aRJay]

I've seen many threads requesting an authentic game economy, but invariably - there are concerns with the BGS and gold selling.

How about a trade window for materials?

Players decide their own exchange rates for mats.

Yes, yes, the material traders in game exist for that, but they are greedy people of questionable parentage. Can't we help a brother out?

If you're worried about gold selling, you could restrict it to squadron members.

What do you think?

How much real world money extra should a grade 5 material over a grade 1 be?

 

[Kaocraft]

How much real world money extra should a grade 5 material over a grade 1 be?

I don't think OP is proposing real money trades. This would be mats for mats.

 

[aRJay]

Now

Now you're just being facetious. Where the dislike button! material trader is system independent.

It's the one to the left of the like button.

 

[aRJay]

Well personally I'd be good with materials being ejectable and scoopable just like commodities, rather than traded through some in-game market. I feel like this is ought to be enough of a limiter on the type of scammery that is likely to negatively impact players the most, while still providing as much of a benefit as anyone could ask for.

But I do have to ask: why don't we see constant chat Spam in the game right now? Why aren't there account sellers constantly advertising in-game? Why aren't there constant enticements to buy Void Opals, or wing mission credit shares, or whatever? And what's so different about materials trading that it would suddenly create some kind of nightmare scenario which drags the game so far into the toilet that it negates all the benefits of letting players freely exchange with one another?

If materials are ejectable then they should be treated like any other cargo and lost with your ship.

 

[Kaocraft]

If materials are ejectable then they should be treated like any other cargo and lost with your ship.

I don't see why one follows the other. There's probably a case to be made for losing materials on ship destruction, but I don't think this is it.

Just for fun, let's extrapolate from your logic:
• NPC crew members, being lost on ship destruction, should therefore be ejectable and transferable between players.
• Likewise passengers
• Likewise exploration data
• Likewise bounty vouchers and combat bonds
• You should be able to dock an SLF in someone else's hangar
• You should be able to park an SRV in someone else's vehicle bay.

You know what I think I'm on your side all this sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Chaparral]

But you haven't solved any of the many issues player to player trading causes, that is detrimental to the game itself. You can keep on brining up specific cases where everything is fine, and trading make sense, but that is just hiding the ugly things...
How will you deal with gold sellers?
The new incentive for bots in the game to collect material?
The new influx of accounts that is bought with stolen credit cards?
Spam in chat? ban the account? oh yea, that account bought with a stolen credit card....

This is stuff you can go to just about any other MMO game out there and watch, if they allow player to player trade.... So this will create more strain on the server infrastructure, it will cause more support cases, as more people will report the spam bots in chat. Not many bots collecting material will be reported, as these will most likely run in solo only. Then we have the entire mess with accounts bought with stolen credit cards, more resources diverted back to manage that mess.

Just so that a few case where tradiong makes perfect sense to be available. And this is not a new thing, and we are still waiting for a good design to manage all those negatives... and what have they came up with? auction houses, where you are not able to trade directly player-player, and we all know that auction houses have their own fair share of issues.

One the biggest issues that these brings is huge inflation, into a game mechanics that does not have an inflation. Once again, bots are going to be deployed to spot all the valuable stuff sold for cheap, and then put out again for much higher price.
...solution to this is fixed prices, auction house have set max limit on how much you can charge, and if the limit is set to low, very few will sell this, setting it to high, there will be ALOT of complaints from players that do not have the fund to buy the stuff they need.


So I do not care how useful player-player trading can be in certain situations, all of the rest of the negative stuff is going to ruin this so we are better of without player-player trading.

Have you played other mmos? P2P + trading post trade is truly not a net negative. In my experience (several thousand hours across multiple mmos), trade is a game enhancement. There is still grind, you have to go after those high value mats or craft desirable items - but there are many more collaborative mechanics that evolve out of the experience.

You might not like chat spam, but you can mute different channels, and most sellers do get dropped.

Are we really looking at engineeringageddon if mats are more accessible? We're not talking about adding an ocean of top tier pilots with full G5 mods. We're talking about giving greater access to engineering, specialization, theorycrafting, socialization, and elite stovepipes (i.e. thargoid combat).

If adding more players and having more players means a strain on servers, then I say damn the torpedoes and do it. More players is good.

The equalizing factor will always be the in game mat traders which will set a peak value on mat commodities - so there will never be a lockdown on a given mat commodity, or such a thing as cornering the market.

Are you really concerned about FDEV spending time on complaints???? They haven't fixed the current mat woes, and so many other things from multicrew to bots to name your favorite bug.

AAA mmos with player trading are extremely popular - I don't see how your argument that trading is bad in other games is valid. It works in other games. It is an important feature in other games. It's fun to play the market.

 

[Chaparral]

How much real world money extra should a grade 5 material over a grade 1 be?

I am not proposing any sort of real world currency exchange. I am proposing trading mat for mat. I have 10 Imperial shielding and I want 2 Pharm Isolators. Do you want to do the deal? It's a shade better than the mat trader, and I'll take it if I can get it.

 

[Werewolf13]

No I am serious. Success for me means I found what I was looking for. At some stage in the game that's materials, at other stages that's ships and still at others it could be void opals or stations that pay out well or even distant planets with cool things to see.

Not sure what you consider success. If that means winning PvP battles, that's quite different than what I consider success.

Success to me means being able to compete in combat and having a decent chance to win all variables being equal except skill. The material acquisition grind hinders to a large extent that goal.

Success means to me being able to trade successfully and make a reasonable amount of credits in a reasonalble amount of time. The poor commodities, lack of market information (maybe corrected by the next patch/upgrade) and trading mechanics implemented by FD hinders that though FD is making progress in that area.

Success in exploring means being able to locate, identify and catalog new stars, planets and moons. I believed that FS has done a pretty good job with this though.

There is no such thing as success in mining. MINING SUX! Period. End of conversation re: MINING. Mining can go visit Saggitarious A and become one withe the mother of the galaxy. But I do respect the guys that love it. Someone has to do it. JUST NOT ME!!!!!

There: my definition of success.

 

[Schmack]

I actually like mining, especially for over 100m per hour and with the new mechanics. No more lasers on rocks, not often anyhow. Now I get to blow stuff up.

The rest we pretty much agree on.

 

[Captain Willard]

There is no need for any player trade in this game, it's never ending.
Doesn't matter if you can play 12 hrs a day or 12 minutes. Yes I know some want it all now to do what they want, when they want.
The game is afoot and there is no end. So far.
I've been playing since week one and there is still so much for me to do and see. Umpteen thousand hours in.
Combat only? Explorer only? Trade only, Mining only? Stealth, passengers, pirate, bounty hunter, thargoids, the list goes on
No wonder you are bored.
I do all of the above and keep looking for more avenues to go down.
OH No to player trades.

 

[Aashenfox]

But you haven't solved any of the many issues player to player trading causes, that is detrimental to the game itself. You can keep on brining up specific cases where everything is fine, and trading make sense, but that is just hiding the ugly things...
How will you deal with gold sellers?
The new incentive for bots in the game to collect material?
The new influx of accounts that is bought with stolen credit cards?
Spam in chat? ban the account? oh yea, that account bought with a stolen credit card....

This is stuff you can go to just about any other MMO game out there and watch, if they allow player to player trade.... So this will create more strain on the server infrastructure, it will cause more support cases, as more people will report the spam bots in chat. Not many bots collecting material will be reported, as these will most likely run in solo only. Then we have the entire mess with accounts bought with stolen credit cards, more resources diverted back to manage that mess.

Just so that a few case where tradiong makes perfect sense to be available. And this is not a new thing, and we are still waiting for a good design to manage all those negatives... and what have they came up with? auction houses, where you are not able to trade directly player-player, and we all know that auction houses have their own fair share of issues.

One the biggest issues that these brings is huge inflation, into a game mechanics that does not have an inflation. Once again, bots are going to be deployed to spot all the valuable stuff sold for cheap, and then put out again for much higher price.
...solution to this is fixed prices, auction house have set max limit on how much you can charge, and if the limit is set to low, very few will sell this, setting it to high, there will be ALOT of complaints from players that do not have the fund to buy the stuff they need.


So I do not care how useful player-player trading can be in certain situations, all of the rest of the negative stuff is going to ruin this so we are better of without player-player trading.

You really should have read the thread mate, ALL of this is covered.

 

[Kaocraft]

There is no need for any player trade in this game, it's never ending.
Doesn't matter if you can play 12 hrs a day or 12 minutes. Yes I know some want it all now to do what they want, when they want.
The game is afoot and there is no end. So far.
I've been playing since week one and there is still so much for me to do and see. Umpteen thousand hours in.
Combat only? Explorer only? Trade only, Mining only? Stealth, passengers, pirate, bounty hunter, thargoids, the list goes on
No wonder you are bored.
I do all of the above and keep looking for more avenues to go down.
OH No to player trades.

So what? Player trading is a bad idea because . . . you are having a fun time? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Triptych]

Of course there should be player trading, there's just no doubt of it, in my mind at any rate. Materials, commodities, ships and ship components: the lot. Does it bring problems? So what? Life's a problem. It'd make the game so much more fun.