Cant wait for Combat 2.0

NOTICE: Sorry for the late finish, my Browser decided to Submit when i added a Line to the Table.

Lets be honest, the current Version of Odysseys on-foot Combat is...not great.

But why? Lets give a few examples.

Lets take a look at some Weapons first:

Long RangeMedium RangeShort RangeSpecial
Karma AR-50
Kinetic Assault Rifle
Full Auto
Base DPS: 9.0
Effective Range: 50m
Karma C-44
Kinetic SMG
Burst
Base DPS: 8.0
Effective Range: 25m
Karma P-15
Kinetic Pistol
Semi-Automatic
Base DPS: 14
Effective Range: 25m
Karma L-6
Rocket Launcher
-
Base DPS: 44.4
-
TK Aphelion
Energy Assault Rifle
Burst
Base DPS: 9.1
Effective Range: 70m
TK Ecplipse
Energy SMG
Full Auto
Base DPS: 9.0
Effective Range: 25m
TK Zenith
Energy Pistol
Burst
Base DPS: 9.7
Effective Range: 35m
-
Manticore Executioner
Plasma Marksman Rifle
Semi-Automatic
Base DPS: 12.5
Effective Range: 100m
Manticore Oppressor
Plasma Assault Rifle
Full Auto
Base DPS: 9.0
Effective Range: 35m
Manticore Tormentor
Plasma Pistol
Semi Automatic
Base DPS: 18.6
Effective Range: 15m
Manticore Intimidator
Plasma Shotgun
Semi-Automatic
Base DPS: 21.9
Effective Range: 7m

What do we notice?
1) Why should i use an SMG? They are not Sidearms, they are Primary, and inferior to the Assault Rifles.
2) Why is there nothing "special" for the Lasers?
3) Why do Pistols have the highest DPS?
4) <50m is the usual effectve Range

So, the numbers are totally whacky.
  • SMG should have a higher DPS at shorter Range than the Assault Rifles, due to accuracy and spread the Assault Rifles would then be better at long Range.
  • Pistols should not be stronger than SMGs
  • Pistols should not be stronger than Rifles

Not to mention that engagement Range really isnt that high. There is no large Battlefield in the CZ where Range would matter.

What else is there?
Plasma Weapons all have a traveltime of around 50m/s. Maybe a bit more or less, its hard to measure. So why is there a Marksman Rifle with 100m effective Range, which takes 2s to hit? Thats fine for the Pistol and Shotgun, but not for Marksman and Assault. Not only that, there is no "Overshield Damage". Even 1p of Shield absorbs a full Plasma Blast. Not the Shotgun though, because this one fires multiple Projectiles.
So "effective Range" really isnt true here. The Executioner is not effective at 100m, the Aphelion is.
The Oppressor is also currently the weakest Weapon. Yes the numbers say that it deals the same amout of Damage as the others, but due to the Projectiles it cant be used at the same Range. And since Pistols are so strong, a simple Weapon-Swap is more effective...or just use another Manticore Weapon.
So, Damage and effectiveness is NOT only about Damage. There are a lot more factors to consider. Accuracy, Speed, Recoil...

And with that we have the next issue. Weapon Swap.
The Rock-Paper-Plasma balance is just bad.
Weapons should be a choice, just like they are on Ships. I can use a full Laser Ship, i can use a full Multicannon Ship.
If my Multicannons are bad against Shields, i engineer them to deal Thermal Damage. Same the other way around with Lasers.
Why cant i do that with Personal Weapons? Why am i forced to swap in Combat just to take out an Enemy?

Then there is Variety and Mission balance
As i said, the current System is designed and balanced entirely around Arena-Combat. Combat Zones. They are not meant for Open-World Combat.
Why is only the Plasma Section "different"? Why is there no Kinetic Sniper or Shotgun? A Beamlaser?
There is no Weapon for a specific Job. I can only go Lethal and Loud. To make a Weapon silent, i need Engineering.
Assassination Missions are a good example. Stay undetected. Your Tool for the Job? An overcharged Taser...
Even Punches are Lethal. Imagine an Assassination Mission where you knock out the Guards from behind, similar to how the Taser is instakilling them. Just without the Bounty...until they are discovered and you are discovered to be the Attacker.
Or whats the Reason for a Rocket Launcher? There is no Infantery VS Vehicle Combat. You dont bring Rockets to fight against Infantery. Thats what Underbarrel-Grenadelaunchers are for.

And while we are at that...
Why exactly is it possible to take out a huge Ship with Infantery-Grade Weapons? I can understand an SRV, but why is it even possible to destroy a Ships Shield with a Pistol?
A Shield that can tank several Class 4 Plasma Projectiles, each of them bigger than a Human?

Conclusion
Combat needs a complete rework, away from Arena-Combat and towards Open-World-Combat. Open World Combat is not just Infantery VS Infantery at close Range.
You dont rush towards eachother, there is cover, there is height advantage, there is environment. A Weapon should be chosen for a specific Job, and not just for its DPS because nothing else matters. SMG and Shotguns for Close-Range, Assault Rifles for Mid-Range, Sniper Rifles for Long Range, Special Weapons for Anti-Vehicle and such things.

EDIT: I heard the argument with "Snipers would be too strong" quite a few times now.
Thats just simply wrong. Why are Sniper so strong in most Shooters? Because most of them are balanced around Arena-Combat. Just look at the famous Call of Duty. You run around and Quickscope. Thats not a good example for a well designed Sniper Rifle. Its just like our Executioner. You run around, Quickscope, and kill. Thats what makes them "too strong". They are Cannons, not Snipers.

Instead, look at the (older) Battlefield Games. Choose your hiding spot, lay down, and camp. Yes, camp, the one thing everyone hates in those fast Arena Shooters. You cant bring a Sniper into quick and agile Combat. Any other Weapon will kill you there, even the Dude with his Pocketknife.
There is no Quickscoping. You need to set up your Rifle, you dont move around much. Stay there too long to farm kills, and something big and explosive from the Sky nukes your Camp. And thats exactly the Environment that we have outside a CZ. We dont have that one optimal Path to the next Objective. Enemies dont spawn all in the same Spot and run down the same Road. They can be everywhere, you can attack from any direction you wish.

The Elite AI, from what i have seen, can already actively narrow down your location and react to noise. We just lack the Tools and Weapons to utilize it. We cant really Snipe, and the enemy cant really counter us. They cant call in Air-Support or Artillery. I also have not yet seen one carry a Rocket Launcher. Yes they carry Executioners, but they are bad with it, for the same reason why we are bad with it. Its not meant to be a long Range Weapon. You see a slow moving Orb coming your way? Just step to the side, it will take a while before the next one crawls your way.

"But i can hit just fine at 200m with the Executioner" yes, it works. But lets look at Ship Weapons. Yes, you can hit a Ship at 6km with Plasma, but its not effective. Using a Hitscan Weapon like Rails or Laser is more effective, using Full Auto Weapons like Multicannons is more effective. Its the same with On-Foot Weapons. Just because it works, doesnt make it good. You are better off using it at short Range where you can reliably Hit and Kill. But for that we have a Plasma Shotgun already, which even negates the Shield Issue mentioned above. We also have a Mini-Executioner that behaves pretty much the same, just in form of a Pistol.
 
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Can you add a conclusion, please? Why is it "not great" because of a table showing DPS and ranges? Or am I posting before you've had a chance to add more posts?

I've actually used all of these weapons and feel they're pretty decently balanced in practice. The only "issue" being the need to switch a lot but there are a few mods that neatly mitigate that issue. Like, into nothing than the difference between how the reload key works.
 
Can you add a conclusion, please? Why is it "not great" because of a table showing DPS and ranges? Or am I posting before you've had a chance to add more posts?

I've actually used all of these weapons and feel they're pretty decently balanced in practice.

Yup, a conclusion would be nice.
 
Just a sidenote, the "effective range" on plasma weapons is a lie. Even dumb "i randomly wobble around" NPCs move fast enough to avoid aimed shots at any noticeable distance. That being said, the numbers themselves mean little for a game being fun or not. But at least for me, the fun factor of Odyssey combat is "limited".

Want a fun FPS, go for anything else than Odyssey. I personally recommend Deep Rock Galactic at the moment... may be of a small team, but it's amazing fun. Especially when played with friends. (Although, you can also play with random people. The community there is leagues ahead of ours here. )

If you absolutely insist on "in space" and having a jetpack: Borderlands the Pre-Sequel. It's very much the game FD tried to build, but failed to match. (And that's one of the weaker Borderlands titles. )
 
Seriously, weapon balance in Odyssey is only loosely an issue on a very subjective level. In practice, none stand out as the absolute best or worst. So if someone wants to start a discussion about Odyssey's weapon balance right now, when we've got a whole bunch of seriously critical issues going on then I refer you to Horizons Engineers as exhibit A.

That is to say, don't hold your breath and accept that it's actually pretty decent. It could be worse. It could be ship balanced.

As it is, once you upgrade a bit, even the bullet sponge disappears. And the range of options we have for a launched product is good. I'm actually thinking that people who start trying to claim there's any sort of major issue with combat need a fish to the face. Proverbial, of course. I'm not a savage.
 
Just a sidenote, the "effective range" on plasma weapons is a lie. Even dumb "i randomly wobble around" NPCs move fast enough to avoid aimed shots at any noticeable distance. That being said, the numbers themselves mean little for a game being fun or not. But at least for me, the fun factor of Odyssey combat is "limited".

Want a fun FPS, go for anything else than Odyssey. I personally recommend Deep Rock Galactic at the moment... may be of a small team, but it's amazing fun. Especially when played with friends. (Although, you can also play with random people. The community there is leagues ahead of ours here. )

If you absolutely insist on "in space" and having a jetpack: Borderlands the Pre-Sequel. It's very much the game FD tried to build, but failed to match. (And that's one of the weaker Borderlands titles. )

Thanks for your insight in non Elite Dangerous FPSs. I hear a lot of complaints about the plasma weapons, there’s a skill to using them but I don’t have a problem with them other than the Oppressor which even at point blank range has a slower TTK compared laser/kinetic combo including the switch.

And yes, I can hit a target with the Executioner at 200m+ and I’m not a big FPS player.
 
Thanks for your insight in non Elite Dangerous FPSs. I hear a lot of complaints about the plasma weapons, there’s a skill to using them but I don’t have a problem with them other than the Oppressor which even at point blank range has a slower TTK compared laser/kinetic combo including the switch.

And yes, I can hit a target with the Executioner at 200m+ and I’m not a big FPS player.

Oppressor is the worst. The Intimidator i admit i have not tested. And on the Executioner: yes, works when the target is not aware of you yet. But when they start moving, the projectile speed is a problem. (Despite your targets not knowing how to jump, which would make things even worse. ) Only for the Tormentor i found that it does not matter. With the pistol i have to get close, anyway.

And on your comment of thanks for the insights: it almost reads sarcastic to me. But in the end, it's an FPS module bolted on to ED. So it has to stand and be compared to FPS alternatives. And the gameplay on many other FPS options, of which i intentionally did not bring up the current AAA titles, but already two less famous alternatives, still is vastly superior in my eyes. (Personal taste, of course. )
 
Oppressor is the worst. The Intimidator i admit i have not tested. And on the Executioner: yes, works when the target is not aware of you yet. But when they start moving, the projectile speed is a problem. (Despite your targets not knowing how to jump, which would make things even worse. ) Only for the Tormentor i found that it does not matter. With the pistol i have to get close, anyway.

And on your comment of thanks for the insights: it almost reads sarcastic to me. But in the end, it's an FPS module bolted on to ED. So it has to stand and be compared to FPS alternatives. And the gameplay on many other FPS options, of which i intentionally did not bring up the current AAA titles, but already two less famous alternatives, still is vastly superior in my eyes. (Personal taste, of course. )
Personally, an FPS just needs to be fun. Definitely if the FPS part is all the game offers, which is true of most AAA FPS games right?

Odyssey's FPS is fun. The balance isn't horrendous. I mean, some of the AAA FPS games I've played had massive balance issues (CoD, I'm looking at you) that often had to be solved by community mods. The thing that sort of irritates me about this debate is that, whilst there's merit in seeking an ideal combat model for Odyssey, the idea that it should be held to account against FPS focused games and also that we should somehow consider these FPS games as "perfect examples" is just false. Every single AAA FPS title can be said to have major flaws in one sense or another.

The only thing that matters is how fun it is. Not whether it's a good CoD copy. And how balanced the weapons are is a part of the measurement for fun. I just don't see any major flaws with Odyssey's weapon balance, which is (I'm guessing) the topic of this thread.

(By the way, I do agree with your analysis and I think that having a chat about some finer balance issues with someone like you would be worthwhile; I just don't care about how Odyssey compares with FPS games, personally and I think it just derrails useful discussion into the pointless abyss of "Odyssey won't ever be as good as these examples that... well actually, subjectively can be also considered not as good as other examples in their field so uh...").
 
@LazerusKI, take DPS stats with a grain of salt. Here is why:
Take a look at Karma pistol in particular. Do you believe some one can do 10 shots in a second?

I am not sure from where those values came but for some weapons they do not represent reality.
 
Oppressor is the worst. The Intimidator i admit i have not tested. And on the Executioner: yes, works when the target is not aware of you yet. But when they start moving, the projectile speed is a problem. (Despite your targets not knowing how to jump, which would make things even worse. ) Only for the Tormentor i found that it does not matter. With the pistol i have to get close, anyway.

The intimidator is quite effective, especially at close range. I think playing Splatoon has helped me with the Executioner's slow projectile range. Back in a low CZ with a G1, on my alt, and I have a near 100% 2-shot kill rate. But it's still not my preferred playstyle. I get far more kills, and quicker TTK, with the SMG than the rifles - just suit's how I play better.

And on your comment of thanks for the insights: it almost reads sarcastic to me. But in the end, it's an FPS module bolted on to ED. So it has to stand and be compared to FPS alternatives. And the gameplay on many other FPS options, of which i intentionally did not bring up the current AAA titles, but already two less famous alternatives, still is vastly superior in my eyes. (Personal taste, of course. )

If there isn't sarcasm somewhere in my post I probably don't like you. ;)

Odyssey isn't a stand-alone FPS, it's an add-on to an existing game. Yes, right now they're very disconnected, but the on-foot game to me isn't about the FPS. Combat will inevitably happen from time to time and for the casual encounter, I think it's okay.

If I want some proper shooter action I wouldn't expect to get it in a DLC to a space game. I'd go somewhere else - maybe one of your suggestions.

The on-foot combat could still do with some tweaking to the balance sure, but I really don't think it's an FPS bolted on or otherwise. It's mostly first person scavenging missions with some combat.
 
Even if they remove all weapons but the shotgun, combat on foot will still be awesome.
Exactly. In my case i only need the Tormentor. Good enough for everything.
@LazerusKI, take DPS stats with a grain of salt. Here is why:
Take a look at Karma pistol in particular. Do you believe some one can do 10 shots in a second?

I am not sure from where those values came but for some weapons they do not represent reality.
thats one Problem i mentioned. Even if you dont hit 10x per second, it still deals enough damage to not matter. Those are not "Sidearms" or "Secondaries".
You should use a Sidearm if you run out of Ammo, not to seal the Deal after your Laser Rifle took out the Shield. A Laser should be slightly Weaker against Armor, not completely useless. The same the other way around.
 
Exactly. In my case i only need the Tormentor. Good enough for everything.

thats one Problem i mentioned. Even if you dont hit 10x per second, it still deals enough damage to not matter. Those are not "Sidearms" or "Secondaries".
You should use a Sidearm if you run out of Ammo, not to seal the Deal after your Laser Rifle took out the Shield. A Laser should be slightly Weaker against Armor, not completely useless. The same the other way around.
Thanks for adding some context :)

And yes, I think there's room for the idea that the laser/kinetic ratio could be narrowed down and then make the weapons more unique in their own right (rather than just being thermal/kinetic versions of each other).

I'd add again that all this does sort of blend away quite a bit as you approach G5 and is almost nonexistant if you properly engineer (something quite a lot of these discussions don't seem to consider). I also don't agree that sidearms have to be inherantly weak. Plenty of cases where a sidearm is deadly in other games and they don't suffer for it. I like the tormentor but the P-15 definitely works better if you're going for a certain loadout (and it's very dangerous too). Perhaps the P-15 has too much ammo though, it has a huge magazine. It could be limited a lot more. The thing I like about the tormentor is it requires skill to use and the payoff is that you needn't worry about switching for shields. Same for all plasma weapons, except the Oppressor which I just don't get and think needs a buff (although NPCs have used it against me to do some pretty decent damage so... )
 
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Conclusion
Combat needs a complete rework, away from Arena-Combat and towards Open-World-Combat. Open World Combat is not just Infantery VS Infantery at close Range.
You dont rush towards eachother, there is cover, there is height advantage, there is environment. A Weapon should be chosen for a specific Job, and not just for its DPS because nothing else matters. SMG and Shotguns for Close-Range, Assault Rifles for Mid-Range, Sniper Rifles for Long Range, Special Weapons for Anti-Vehicle and such things.
Not. At. All.

Combat needs to evolve. They had to start somewhere and I think this is a good start. For what we seen of combat since release that it. Lots of other stuff way more important went down the drain, so let them deal with that first.
 
Can you add a conclusion, please? Why is it "not great" because of a table showing DPS and ranges? Or am I posting before you've had a chance to add more posts?

I've actually used all of these weapons and feel they're pretty decently balanced in practice. The only "issue" being the need to switch a lot but there are a few mods that neatly mitigate that issue. Like, into nothing than the difference between how the reload key works.
Personally I think all the SMGs (including the Oppressor) are just useless.
I only tried a AR-50 once either.

For me currently there is only the Aphelion / P15 or the Executioner / Tormentor combo.

All other combos are inferior.

edit: am on G4 Aphelion with Stability and Extra clip size and it rocks.
 
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