Captain Hindsight about Multicrew, Arena, Immersion and Gratification

This is going to be a Captain Hindsight post. I don't expect FDEV to change anything drastically that late into development but still want to tell you how to make it right (in my opinion, not yours).

I'll start by predicting that we will have a poll about the implementation of multicrew during beta with the following options and results:

Do you like multicrew?

I don't care 50%
Yes, it's perfect 15%
No, I don't like it 35%

The problem is (as always) that FDEV tries to cater to all different kinds of players, which is almost impossible with a single feature and such a heterogeneous community.

Some keywords that don't necessarily match:

- What about exploration
- We need more roles
- My immersion
- Gameplay trumps realism
- Nobody is going to use it
- This breaks the logic of other mechanics
- It should be fun
- Quick drop in and drop out
- Consequences and rewards
- Deus ex machina
- DDF
- etc.

I think both, the instant action and the slower but more immersive variant are valid, but they can't work together in the same feature. That's why Multicrew should be split up in a realistic-immersive and an arcade-action mechanic. You don't need to make up lore reasons for one feature and you don't need to compromise the instant action experience.
Without going into much detail or thinking it through, that's how it could work (not necessarily needs to be that way, just brainstorming...):

Realism-Immersion

- You can only board a ship when meeting at a station or in space
- Not purely combat focused, potential benefits could be faster travel due to better navigation, faster / more effective mining, enhanced scanner mechanics
- Works with NPCs
- Can be used for combat but doesn't add any magic pips and stuff
- Missions get shared
- Allows large ships to interact with outposts by adding a ship launched carrier for cargo and / or passengers
- Doesn't rely on telepresence
- Doesn't need to be fully implemented in the first iteration

Arcade-Action

- CQC gets added as Arena mode to the main game, you can access it from anywhere using the telepresence magic stuff or by flying to hotspots directly (Arenas are present in the Capital and othetr remarkable systems)
- Using telepresence takes a small share of your profits to encourage direct travel to the arena
- Large multicrew ships are added to the Arena
- You can add use as much magic and stuff as you want, don't care if it's magic pips or boosters or bananas and turtle shells
- Allows instant drop in and drop out action
- Not just about multicrew, but you could have some leagues and ladders and stuff


I know that this would require a lot of work, it will not be added to the game and as always people will disagree. But maybe it shows how a feature could be implemented in a way that pleases more than one type of player, by making different features rather than trying to break the lore with a crowbar.

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So if I understand this correctly:

Multicrew and Arena get merged into one instant-access module, with all the perks of the current system (quick drop-in, focus on action, credits galore, no responsibility for your actions), which doesn't affect the game's lore (you're playing a video game within a video game, consider it the e-sport of the 34th century, credits are payed by space-Cola and space-Red Bull adverts)?

While Realcrew exists as a separate system with advantages and disadvantages, but most importantly, is in-line with what we imagine spacelegs will be?

Yeah, that would have worked.

Too bad it requires more development resources than FDEV are willing to put into it.
 
Stick me in the 35% camp.

I like the idea of instant action (like CQC in concept) to introduce ED to a wider community, and I can understand the instant travel with it's rather weak lore justification from a gamplay perspective, but I think it gives a false view of what the game is like to play to those introduced in this way.

I have a couple of friends who bought Arena as a test to see whether their PC could handle ED, and to see whether they would enjoy the game. In both cases the CQC gameplay wasn't a big selling point, but one went on to buy the game & thought it was much better than they expected.

If multi-crew is your first foray into combat when you decide to give it a go yourself are you going to wonder how come you can't get this view from your own ship? You bought the turrets after all :) But then by the point someone tries this they already have the main game so maybe it doesn't matter.

It's another relatively risk free mode added to the game just as CQC is, hopefully this one will be more popular. If turret cam becomes available (ie like the SRV turret view) it could encourage teamwork ("hold the ship steady, keep the target above you") but only if it actually gets used I suppose :)
 
I don't get the obsession to demand meeting in the same place to make it work.

It was the main selling point of the game. A game spanning an entire galaxy. A game where you have to go places to do stuff. Everything else flows from there.

Not saying that you should be required to "travel a minimum of X ly, to unlock fun". Which is why not many even objected to the individual idea of instant multicrew, in this iterration, in the first place.

But the current design of multicrew doesn't even require the galaxy to exist if you think about it. As a new player, you could find yourself having played countless hours of Elite in multicrew without ever having done the preflight check or having plotted a hyperspace jump. Which is why I have to agree with the OP that it might have been better suited as an additional module or game mode, without stepping on anyone toes.
 
It was the main selling point of the game. A game spanning an entire galaxy. A game where you have to go places to do stuff. Everything else flows from there.

Not saying that you should be required to "travel a minimum of X ly, to unlock fun". Which is why not many even objected to the individual idea of instant multicrew, in this iterration, in the first place.

But the current design of multicrew doesn't even require the galaxy to exist if you think about it. As a new player, you could find yourself having played countless hours of Elite in multicrew without ever having done the preflight check or having plotted a hyperspace jump. Which is why I have to agree with the OP that it might have been better suited as an additional module or game mode, without stepping on anyone toes.

Every day I commute 1 hour to work, and 1 hour back home.

I have zero interest "commuting" in the game in order to enable myself to have fun together with friends.

Your suggestion means if my friend who is in Colonia wants try Multi-crew with me he has to fly all the way back to bubble first?

I play the game to have fun. If I want true realism there is the real world for that. In games there is a compromise between realism and arcade... and that compromise is called fun-factor.

There is also nothing stopping you from simply forcing yourself to fly to whatever station your friend is at and dock your ship there, then pretend you are boarding his ship as you join the multi-crew session. That realism you can impose on yourself without imposing it on others who don't want that kind of time consuming realism which, honestly, doesn't really add any sense of realism to the game (from my perspective at least).

Maybe, just maybe, if we had our space legs and walked from our ship, onto the landing pad and strolled over to our friends ship and walked onboard it... then it would have an approximation to realism.

Currently though... the telepresence approach is perfect.
 
It was the main selling point of the game. A game spanning an entire galaxy. A game where you have to go places to do stuff. Everything else flows from there.

Not saying that you should be required to "travel a minimum of X ly, to unlock fun". Which is why not many even objected to the individual idea of instant multicrew, in this iterration, in the first place.

But the current design of multicrew doesn't even require the galaxy to exist if you think about it. As a new player, you could find yourself having played countless hours of Elite in multicrew without ever having done the preflight check or having plotted a hyperspace jump. Which is why I have to agree with the OP that it might have been better suited as an additional module or game mode, without stepping on anyone toes.

If I developed something like this I'd try to avoid my work go wasted on a feature that won't be really used. The playground isn't really nice to meet up and organize playing.
 
I don't get the obsession to demand meeting in the same place to make it work.
Some people are obsessively averse to "fun" being easily available. I maintain that those people should be playing other games, especially if they consider this one a "simulator" (in which case I recommend attending physics 101 as well).

- - - Updated - - -

How can you possibly have hindsight on this?

And that's a very valid question.

- - - Updated - - -

As a new player, you could find yourself having played countless hours of Elite in multicrew without ever having done the preflight check or having plotted a hyperspace jump. Which is why I have to agree with the OP that it might have been better suited as an additional module or game mode, without stepping on anyone toes.
Two things here:

① Why and how would that be a bad thing? So people could be and identify as professional fighter pilots or gunners. Sounds like a neat feature.

② How in the blazes would that even begin to work?
 
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I have zero interest "commuting" in the game in order to enable myself to have fun together with friends.

Your suggestion means if my friend who is in Colonia wants try Multi-crew with me he has to fly all the way back to bubble first

Not saying that you should be required to "travel a minimum of X ly, to unlock fun".

I don't know how I can say it more clearer that this. But if you're just enjoying twisting my words, I won't get upset. Go on, knock yourself out.

Oh, and it's not my suggestion, it's the OPs. I was just agreeing to his train of thought.

If I developed something like this I'd try to avoid my work go wasted on a feature that won't be really used. The playground isn't really nice to meet up and organize playing.

You don't know how many people would enjoy one mode and how many the other. It may be that meeting up may indeed end up less popular than instant Arenacrew, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it wasted development.

① Why and how would that be a bad thing? So people could be and identify as professional fighter pilots or gunners. Sounds like a neat feature.

With a theoretical Physicalcrew (being stationed aboard your friend's ship), he could pick you up at your station, *once*, you're on his ship until you leave, and you get to enjoy a career as a professional fighter pilot or gunner. Still a neat feature.

② How in the blazes would that even begin to work?

Not sure what you're referring to here - if it's the dual crew system in general, as described by the OP, then... I'll leave that to him. :)
 
I don't know how I can say it more clearer that this. But if you're just enjoying twisting my words, I won't get upset. Go on, knock yourself out.

Oh, and it's not my suggestion, it's the OPs. I was just agreeing to his train of thought.



You don't know how many people would enjoy one mode and how many the other. It may be that meeting up may indeed end up less popular than instant Arenacrew, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it wasted development.



With a theoretical Physicalcrew (being stationed aboard your friend's ship), he could pick you up at your station, *once*, you're on his ship until you leave, and you get to enjoy a career as a professional fighter pilot or gunner. Still a neat feature.



Not sure what you're referring to here - if it's the dual crew system in general, as described by the OP, then... I'll leave that to him. :)

We don't have the numbers. I can only assume FD has made some decision based on theirs and a move to increase multiplayer interactivity.
 
I'm in the "Dont like it" 35%, but I imagine I'll never use it, so I can be as bad as PowerPlay for all I care, I just think it's sad it's not better.

Hopefully NPC crew comes quickly, and actual Space Legs Multi-crew will be worth experiencing.
 
The problem is (as always) that FDEV tries to cater to all different kinds of players, which is almost impossible with a single feature and such a heterogeneous community.

I have to empathise on this statement, it seems rather odd, seemingly label things you don't like as 'bad'?
Of course a game tries to make features that people want, this is nothing new, but multi crew has been in the works for _ages_ complaining about it now when it comes out seems at best like yet another "But I want x y z, you suck frontier" post, because they don't give exactly what you want.
Multi crew seems to have potential of the whole playing together with friends, which has had people complaining "Why do I need to travel x amount to get to a friend to play with him" in quite a large number of threads.

Personally I'm not sure where I stand on it, Frontier's idea seems to have more merit then not, but it doesn't seem a 'bad' thing for the game.

Arena was an entirely different animal, and had its issues, for entirely different reasons, at least in my mind. But the fact that Elite is willing to pull it off stores, should tell you that Frontier is more then ready to adapt and work with feedback, so how about we let them finish what they are working on before you begin trying to tear down their work?
 
I have to empathise on this statement, it seems rather odd, seemingly label things you don't like as 'bad'?
Of course a game tries to make features that people want, this is nothing new, but multi crew has been in the works for _ages_ complaining about it now when it comes out seems at best like yet another "But I want x y z, you suck frontier" post, because they don't give exactly what you want.
Multi crew seems to have potential of the whole playing together with friends, which has had people complaining "Why do I need to travel x amount to get to a friend to play with him" in quite a large number of threads.

Personally I'm not sure where I stand on it, Frontier's idea seems to have more merit then not, but it doesn't seem a 'bad' thing for the game.

Arena was an entirely different animal, and had its issues, for entirely different reasons, at least in my mind. But the fact that Elite is willing to pull it off stores, should tell you that Frontier is more then ready to adapt and work with feedback, so how about we let them finish what they are working on before you begin trying to tear down their work?

I might not care much for MC, but I see it exactly like that.
 
Not sure what you're referring to here - if it's the dual crew system in general, as described by the OP, then... I'll leave that to him. :)
Referring to the notion of having multicrew as its own "module". What would a world look like in which that's a good idea?

"Oh yeah, this game totally has multiplayer. Sure, you'll have to leave the game, and it takes a couple hours to set up a session and get everyone into the correct place, but yeah, once you've done that you can totally have some fun together!"
 
FD seem to be WAY off the mark. Remember "Play your way", seem in my eyes refering to the ONE not the many.

Like with all things in ED I will give a try, but I see no real practical use for Multicrew (AT THE MOMENT).
REALLY how many players using wings are there or players who will play in same ship?
Do you REALLY think that it will give you an edge in PVP, and NPC are a bad joke give them some teeth for god sake.
 
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Referring to the notion of having multicrew as its own "module". What would a world look like in which that's a good idea?

Might have used the wrong word there, "module" - I was simply referring to the notion of instant Multicrew as the OP described it (the best way I understood it, was as a sport / gladiatorial game of the 34th century).
 
This is going to be a Captain Hindsight post. I don't expect FDEV to change anything drastically that late into development but still want to tell you how to make it right (in my opinion, not yours).

I'll start by predicting that we will have a poll about the implementation of multicrew during beta with the following options and results:

Do you like multicrew?

I don't care 50%
Yes, it's perfect 15%
No, I don't like it 35%

The problem is (as always) that FDEV tries to cater to all different kinds of players, which is almost impossible with a single feature and such a heterogeneous community.

Some keywords that don't necessarily match:

- What about exploration
- We need more roles
- My immersion
- Gameplay trumps realism
- Nobody is going to use it
- This breaks the logic of other mechanics
- It should be fun
- Quick drop in and drop out
- Consequences and rewards
- Deus ex machina
- DDF
- etc.

I think both, the instant action and the slower but more immersive variant are valid, but they can't work together in the same feature. That's why Multicrew should be split up in a realistic-immersive and an arcade-action mechanic. You don't need to make up lore reasons for one feature and you don't need to compromise the instant action experience.
Without going into much detail or thinking it through, that's how it could work (not necessarily needs to be that way, just brainstorming...):

Realism-Immersion

- You can only board a ship when meeting at a station or in space
- Not purely combat focused, potential benefits could be faster travel due to better navigation, faster / more effective mining, enhanced scanner mechanics
- Works with NPCs
- Can be used for combat but doesn't add any magic pips and stuff
- Missions get shared
- Allows large ships to interact with outposts by adding a ship launched carrier for cargo and / or passengers
- Doesn't rely on telepresence
- Doesn't need to be fully implemented in the first iteration

Arcade-Action

- CQC gets added as Arena mode to the main game, you can access it from anywhere using the telepresence magic stuff or by flying to hotspots directly (Arenas are present in the Capital and othetr remarkable systems)
- Using telepresence takes a small share of your profits to encourage direct travel to the arena
- Large multicrew ships are added to the Arena
- You can add use as much magic and stuff as you want, don't care if it's magic pips or boosters or bananas and turtle shells
- Allows instant drop in and drop out action
- Not just about multicrew, but you could have some leagues and ladders and stuff


I know that this would require a lot of work, it will not be added to the game and as always people will disagree. But maybe it shows how a feature could be implemented in a way that pleases more than one type of player, by making different features rather than trying to break the lore with a crowbar.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/RpwGu8yNTNI/hqdefault.jpg

I almost 100% agree.

Rep.
 
Every day I commute 1 hour to work, and 1 hour back home.

I have zero interest "commuting" in the game in order to enable myself to have fun together with friends.

Your suggestion means if my friend who is in Colonia wants try Multi-crew with me he has to fly all the way back to bubble first?

I play the game to have fun. If I want true realism there is the real world for that. In games there is a compromise between realism and arcade... and that compromise is called fun-factor.

There is also nothing stopping you from simply forcing yourself to fly to whatever station your friend is at and dock your ship there, then pretend you are boarding his ship as you join the multi-crew session. That realism you can impose on yourself without imposing it on others who don't want that kind of time consuming realism which, honestly, doesn't really add any sense of realism to the game (from my perspective at least).

Maybe, just maybe, if we had our space legs and walked from our ship, onto the landing pad and strolled over to our friends ship and walked onboard it... then it would have an approximation to realism.

Currently though... the telepresence approach is perfect.

Sorry, but did you even read the opening post?
 
Sorry, but did you even read the opening post?

Yes I did and your suggestion about Realism-Immersion vs Arcade I don't agree with.

I have absolutely zero interest in arena fights. I play in the actual game. When playing in the actual game I have zero interest in flying hundreds of lightyears, or having friends fly hundreds of lightyears, just so we can meet up somewhere and then enjoy an evening together with multicrew.

At least I understood your post to split the arcade, telepresence part into some arena only mode.

Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed pretty clear on the separation between realism (base game) and arcade (arena) and how the former should require meeting up and the latter would be an instant combat thing.
 
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