Casual Player Penalties FD Should Reconsider

[SentineI]

It would lead to confusion, being a somewhat arbitrary and unintuitive rule.

I find the current system extremely unintuitive! Being "arbitrary" doesn't matter, as long as it's explained. Most of the game itself is "arbitrary"

You'll have to be explained, somehow, that while offline, the missions pause but up to a day.

It will only be one more thing to learn in ED, over the huge number of things you already have to learn. (And one of the things you already have to learn is that unexectedly your personal missions don't pause when you log-out of the game, unlike 99.9% of other games including most MMOs.)

Will it count in that day if you are in game? Will it support multiple disconnects? Will it start at mission accepted and count a continuous 24 hours? Will it start counting when you go offline? A lot of complications.

You are making it sound unnecessarily complicated. It's easy to understand: Each mission has a 24 hour timer that counts down whenever you are offline. Once it reaches zero, the mission's normal timer will no-longer be frozen. This can be made easier to understand in practice, by showing this timer info somewhere. Then you will quickly learn how it works in practice, just like you already learned how mission timers work in practice.

Additionally, there could me a message when you log-out (if you have any outstanding missions), reminding you that your outstanding missions will only be paused for (up to) 24 hours. Simples

Frankly, when you log-out, the game should ALREADY warn you that have outstanding missions (who's timers will continue to count down). This would (1) greatly reduce beginner frustration, and (2) prevent you from occasionally forgetting that you have an outstanding mission to complete.

 

[Zelos1983]

Did you even read the OP? There were specific examples how you can be interrupted unexpectedly, not because of "bad time management skills". Also, managing when you can play and when you have real life responsibilities is not a skill within the game, because from the very first principles what happens outside the game is not part of the game.

You failed to show how only "casual players" are affected by such disruptions.
And yes, I even INCLUDED them. You failed to read that part as well. The biggest issue to casuals are server problems, as it is something that they can't influence.
On the other hand, their own IT as well as their RL time management is their responsibility.

Imagine you were playing, say, a Streetfighter style game with a friend online, and their door bells, and he quickly goes to answer it, then he comes back and in the meantime you have defeated him while he was afk. You can't then just claim "l2p, git gud", because the happening of a real-life event is not a measure of the skill at the game.

Well, that's his own fault then ;-).
Why would you answer the door to some uninvited people? And if you know someone is coming over, why would you start an online game just a few minutes before their arrival when you know it will take longer?
That's just utter incompetence, and a lost online game may be one of the consequences.

 

[Geehawk]

Why would you answer the door to some uninvited people?

The internet never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Hydrino]

Why would I want to have a word with FD about that? It's advertised as an online multiplayer game, that's an MMO by definition, literally. The adverts simply reinforce that it IS an MMO by constantly referencing all the standard MMO tropes. YOU not getting that is on you, you aren't alone in that miscomprehension I might add, something I can't even blame on this being the Elite fanbase, as many other MMOs have players who make the same mistakes, 'what do you mean, no single player offline mode, I didn't buy WoW to play with other people!'...not a joke, that's an actual complaint.

FD does state that Elite: Dangerous is not the STANDARD MMO, which is true, it's not the standard MMO, and that's why I enjoy it so much, but it still an MMO.

And what the hell makes you think I have nothing better to do with my time? I'm at work between conference calls at the moment, so I'm killing some time. I'm one of those busy execs you hear about, not enough hours in the week for work, much less having a personal life. I get a few hours a week to play Elite: Dangerous typically, and I'm not whining about the game not catering to MY personal schedule. I'm actually telling my store clerk how to do stuff with our new billing system while I'm typing this, multitasking is a real thing around this company, I'm the head of IT, director of programming, customer service and half a dozen other things, and no, I don't get paid enough for what I do, but I enjoy it, we're a Lifeline provider, helping people is something I enjoy doing. It also means I have little, strike that, NO patience for whining self entitled people who aren't one of my customers.

ROFLOL. [up] Nice.

We all know "execs" are the most entitled group there is, like using company time and resources to play around on gaming forums and paying 1/2 the attention to an employee they should be; shocking! I'm sure the store clerk gets the same privileges. Calling others entitled and whiny for posting a request about a video game where the company actively solicits feedback to improve their product for as many customers and potential customers as possible?

And, as an exec you should know that research shows humans are really bad at multitasking. I hope you didn't tell your store clerk to deploy the register drawer and put 4 pips to weapons immediately after being interdicted.

The BGS is not real-time. :x Yaw is nerfed. [yesnod] Ships can lift off from higher-G planets with maneuvering thrusters than they should be able to without handwavium. There are many "unrealistic" things FD has accepted for this "real time MMO" video game. [money]

FD asks for feedback and say they welcome it, so sorry you disagree with mine, it is what it is. FD listens to feedback and for instance reverted their decision to penalize module trade-in value because of "whining". FD change a lot of stuff based on player feedback, and 2.1 will bring many more changes. When they change something you don't like, please be quiet and just accept it as you advise others.

 

[Hydrino]

I think a lot of people hugely overestimate the complexity of things.
There was a video from frontier, in which they discussed how some technical aspects of the game work.
Basically all those "living galaxy which always continue to run, etc..." is represented by some amount of scheduled tasks running throug data and modifying it as required.
What continues to change while you are offline and what not is just a matter of decision. Here mission timers and fuel are good examples. Why the clock suddenly stop for you ship and not for missions? Just design decidion, nothing more.
And those ingame time... most likely just a fixed value added to current time.

This is a really good point. I can stop the game when supercruising in space, or orbiting a planet, or occupying the only landing pad on an Outpost. Ship fuel consumption magically stops. Enemy ships can't scan your "USS" and jump you and kill you. The pad is opened automagically.

Another perfect example of how this is not a "real time" life simulator but just a video game where many liberties are taken by the developers. Even in Open play the game has to try to instance players so while we can all influence the BGS to some degree, we are not all playing literally in the same place and thus blockades can't work (and of course there are solo and group modes which are further "non realistic" aspects affecting the "realtime MMO").

 

[dxm55]

For the OP, the game would work out for you if

1) It had an offline mode
2) FD includes more missions (with no timers) that would make it more feasible for the time-strapped casual gamers

 

[babelfisch]

I think a lot of people hugely overestimate the complexity of things.
There was a video from frontier, in which they discussed how some technical aspects of the game work.
Basically all those "living galaxy which always continue to run, etc..." is represented by some amount of scheduled tasks running throug data and modifying it as required.
What continues to change while you are offline and what not is just a matter of decision. Here mission timers and fuel are good examples. Why the clock suddenly stop for you ship and not for missions? Just design decidion, nothing more.
And those ingame time... most likely just a fixed value added to current time.

This is a really good point. I can stop the game when supercruising in space, or orbiting a planet, or occupying the only landing pad on an Outpost. Ship fuel consumption magically stops. Enemy ships can't scan your "USS" and jump you and kill you. The pad is opened automagically.

Another perfect example of how this is not a "real time" life simulator but just a video game where many liberties are taken by the developers. Even in Open play the game has to try to instance players so while we can all influence the BGS to some degree, we are not all playing literally in the same place and thus blockades can't work (and of course there are solo and group modes which are further "non realistic" aspects affecting the "realtime MMO").

Nobody talks about technical limitations. Obviously it would be possible to stop the mission timer but it would break the logic of the game and make more meaningful interaction impossible for upcoming features.

The game allows you to stop all timers and limitations that affect your CMDR only. As soon as something interacts with the BGS the game doesn't allow you to stop timers because of consistency. Creating an evolving and dynamic economy and galaxy requires us to follow rules like galactic standard time.

A system in famine will automatically create a mission asking you to provide food. If you take that mission and return when the system isn't in famine anymore and nobody needs your food - the mission will no longer influence the BGS and you will get no payment. In the current version the mission will just fail, another option would be that the mission doesnt fail and your employer tells you something like "We don't need your food anymore, you are late. But thanks for the efforts and here is 0 payment." Would that fix the problem for you?

 

[lysan]

Hi FD,

love this ED game.

But really, a lot of your ardent supporters are adults with children and careers and other demands and their play time is limited and desired to be for fun.

So it still really mystifies me why you choose penalizing mechanics as a game design choice.

I understand grind, sure that will exist in any game to give the initial sense of progression. Even classic board-games can be viewed as a grind to the end.

But you throw in these casual player penalties for what reason? It is after all just a game and you nerf Yaw to make it "fun". My play time is limited so I've only discovered this list but there may be more:

• Mission timers that make no sense
  • So I'm supposed to hold onto a data cache until target time 0:55.
  • Why isn't there a clock on my HUD so I know what time it is now, and so how long I have to hold the data?
  • Is this GMT time? Does FD actually expect me to translate my local time to Cambridge time? Is FD Towers the center of the universe?
  • Is this the number of minutes I need to hold the data? If so, why doesn't it show the initial time and a countdown timer?
  • Why if I exceed the time holding the data does the mission fail, when it says clearly someone will contact me after I have held the data- but not that the mission will fail if I do not respond within a certain time window or if I'm docked too long
• Mission timers that don't stop when I exit the game
  • So in this ED game the simulation ticks once a day, maybe twice? PowerPlay ticks once a week.
  • But Mission timers cannot be delayed!
  • I kid you not, I have failed 4 missions in a row because one of my kids threw up and I had to log off, a neighbor came over needing help, the wife demanded I stop for dinner with the family, and once I realized it was after midnight and I needed to sleep for work the next day and could not wait the hour still to go on holding the data.
  • These missions are not critical to the game, to the BGS or to anyone but the Pilot that took them
  • Why can't FD relax this burdensome rule and let me take a mission I want and then "pause" it when I have to log off
  • In game time versus real time works for this, maybe not for other parts of the game, but this I just don't get
• Reputation Decay
  • FD will sacrifice any aspect of "realism" for fun, such as Yaw
  • But NOT pointless reputation decay as a "realistic" mechanism
  • if I can't live in the game the in game RNG NPC's that aren't even persistent (maybe some of them changing with 2.1), and don't exist in my instance when I shut the game down, somehow get snotty and think I don't deserve the rep earned because it's been two weeks since I logged in
  • It is a game FD, not my life, what gives?
• No ship transport mechanic
  • I get a Viper with all A modules, kitted out the way I want
  • I decide I'd like an exploration ship or to just try something new
  • I store the Viper and proceed to fly about
  • A couple weeks later I want the Viper but it is 1,000 LY away and will take me 30-40 minutes of mindless jumping to get back to it
  • If I sell the Viper then I will have to spend weeks re-kitting it with the modules I've found at the random spots in the game (since in the future apparently no ship-yard stocks everything or can re-order out-of-stock items from Amazon 3300= see FD making something "fun" but not "realistic" again!)
  • make it magic like the transition to the SRV- I can call any ship I have for a cost based on distance, but after paying it will instantly be available in the starport where I am docked
  • It is just a game, realistic or not. Will be like Multi-crew- to be fun FD won't be able to force us to dock and load on the friends ship all the time, there will have to be "teleportation", immersion be darned
• Insta scans and insta-death USS
  • These could be bugs, but in the last week I have failed a mission due to a totally unavoidable scan- I turned on silent running and boosted with FA Off and all pips to engines as soon as it started but it was over in 2-3 seconds.
  • We need a scan timer GUI when we are the target just like when we are scanning another ship. It should graphically show us how complete the scan of our ship is- how much time we have to do something to disrupt it
  • Similarly, I dropped into a non-strong signal source while carrying a valuable data delivery and dropped right in the middle of 4 ships that started firing right away and was killed in seconds- and this was NPCs. Realistic maybe... I don't think they even had time to do a proper scan though. And I certainly had no chance to run, supercruise or fight

I think 2.1 will be amazing for the game and my enjoyment, but it would be even better if it addressed these points.

I agree with most of your points, lets hope this will be fixed in 2.1

 

[Kristov]

ROFLOL. [up] Nice.

We all know "execs" are the most entitled group there is, like using company time and resources to play around on gaming forums and paying 1/2 the attention to an employee they should be; shocking! I'm sure the store clerk gets the same privileges. Calling others entitled and whiny for posting a request about a video game where the company actively solicits feedback to improve their product for as many customers and potential customers as possible?

And, as an exec you should know that research shows humans are really bad at multitasking. I hope you didn't tell your store clerk to deploy the register drawer and put 4 pips to weapons immediately after being interdicted.

The BGS is not real-time. :x Yaw is nerfed. [yesnod] Ships can lift off from higher-G planets with maneuvering thrusters than they should be able to without handwavium. There are many "unrealistic" things FD has accepted for this "real time MMO" video game. [money]

FD asks for feedback and say they welcome it, so sorry you disagree with mine, it is what it is. FD listens to feedback and for instance reverted their decision to penalize module trade-in value because of "whining". FD change a lot of stuff based on player feedback, and 2.1 will bring many more changes. When they change something you don't like, please be quiet and just accept it as you advise others.

I multitask just fine, you should actually read the studies on it, some humans can do it, we're just not the majority. I was showing my store clerk our new accounting and billing system remotely while talking to her over the phone, amazing thing, remoting into someone else's computer to literally show them what they need to see and do while you explain it to them over the phone, perhaps you've heard of that? I know, it's one of those new things we've only been doing for decades, so you may not have ever heard of it, but it's really useful, great time saver. I'm actually pretty good at my job, it's why I have a job, it's why I'll continue to have a job until I decide to retire, per my CEO. I'd say he's probably ok with how I do my job.

As for the online real time bit, well, you not understanding it doesn't make it any less so, and you clearly don't understand it. 1st world problem here, whining about not having enough time to play a video game, and the video game not catering to your personal schedule, unlike every other MMO game out there, which totally caters to your personal schedule..oh, hang on, wait a minute, I'm being told that no other MMO actually does that! Well, how about that! Seems that MMOs don't cater to your personal schedule at all, or anyone else's for that matter, how about that?

As for some game play designs like the yaw and thruster power, what does that have to do with anything? Right, absolutely nothing to do with anything, you not understanding what's going on is rather funny, especially considering the links in your sig...

And you are correct, FD does solicit feedback, they even have a section of the forums specifically for that purpose, did you know that? Oh, and FD have changed things in a manner I didn't like, I didn't see any reason to whine about it however, since it's not my game, I don't see that I have the right to do that. Elite: Dangerous, the game David Braben and FD want to play, remember that Mr KS Backer? This isn't your game, it isn't my game, it's their game, we all agreed to that when we gave them our money, or did you really not understand that?

 

[Arithon]

You are getting a HUD clock in 2.1 as requested.

However, even as it was announced, other commanders were immediately demanding it be removed or made optional only. So you can see Frontier's dilemma.

 

[Zelos1983]

You are getting a HUD clock in 2.1 as requested.

lol? Why do I need a HUD clock?

Again, that's unbelievable - there are so many things to fix and FD bothers with THIS!?

 

[babelfisch]

lol? Why do I need a HUD clock?

Again, that's unbelievable - there are so many things to fix and FD bothers with THIS!?

Look at the picture Arithon posted. Look at your post. Look again.

Maybe you don't need a HUD clock, but many others requested it and I doubt that the implementation took too much time. Since neither the galaxy nor the game revolves around you nobody cares if you don't need a HUD clock.

 

[Ddraig]

I am a casual.
No idea what the problem is with the timers.
Is not FD's fault that my life is busy or not.
And you said, its a game not your life, so what is so important about it?

Everything else, well, debatable.

 

[Zelos1983]

Maybe you don't need a HUD clock, but many others requested it and I doubt that the implementation took too much time.

So what? It's something unnecessary, and more useful things also don't take a long time to implement (e.g. Ship names).

Since neither the galaxy nor the game revolves around you nobody cares if you don't need a HUD clock.

You argument is flawed as it can be turned around. Nobody cares if YOU need a HUD clock, because you can't be bothered to turn your head a few degrees more to look at the clock in your systray ;-).

And it's also flawed because FD should care about what customers want: That means revenue. But as you see, there are ongoing price discussions about Horizons expansion. On the other side, we have companies who listen more to their customer base (e.g. CIG) and get more funding - for a game that isn't even finished (!).

Kind of funny to see FD fail on so many levels and suffer the financial consequences for it. And yet, we see people defending them. I'll grab some popcorn.

 

[Cynaqq]

lol? Why do I need a HUD clock?

Again, that's unbelievable - there are so many things to fix and FD bothers with THIS!?

The server is already keeping time. I'm sure it took about 3 seconds to code the clock, literally 3 lines of code, and another 10 or so minutes to think about where to put it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

So what? It's something unnecessary, and more useful things also don't take a long time to implement (e.g. Ship names).

This single line shows how little you know about actual computer programming.

 

[Ozric]

So what? It's something unnecessary, and more useful things also don't take a long time to implement (e.g. Ship names).



You argument is flawed as it can be turned around. Nobody cares if YOU need a HUD clock, because you can't be bothered to turn your head a few degrees more to look at the clock in your systray ;-).

And it's also flawed because FD should care about what customers want: That means revenue. But as you see, there are ongoing price discussions about Horizons expansion. On the other side, we have companies who listen more to their customer base (e.g. CIG) and get more funding - for a game that isn't even finished (!).

Kind of funny to see FD fail on so many levels and suffer the financial consequences for it. And yet, we see people defending them. I'll grab some popcorn.

Your post is so full of ... I don't even know where to begin.

Let's just say the clock may be unnecessary to you, but to others it is very necessary as it allows for certain gameplay styles to be expanded upon. Also you can only see the clock in your systray if you are playing in windowed mode and/or have enough cash/space to have 2 monitors.

I'm not even going to get started on the last 2 paragraphs.

 

[Arithon]

You cannot "turn and look at a Sys Tray" if you are running the game, since it's full screen (or running on VR).

On the other side, we have companies who listen more to their customer base (e.g. CIG) and get more funding - for a game that isn't even finished (!).

Would that be a company that promised it's customers a game in 2014, customers who are still waiting two years later? Who speaks of defending failure? Can you still afford popcorn?

 

[babelfisch]

You argument is flawed as it can be turned around. Nobody cares if YOU need a HUD clock, because you can't be bothered to turn your head a few degrees more to look at the clock in your systray ;-).

My argument isn't flawed at all because I never said that the galaxy or the game revolves around me. I never asked for a HUD clock and don't need one but I know that there are people who asked for it and they are happy about the change. Instead of beeing egocentric and plain arrogant by saying "what are you doing FDEV, I didn't ask for a HUD clock, how dare you to implement it and waste your time for something I will never use" I am happy for those who asked for it. Is it really that hard to be a little less selfish?

 

[Kristov]

So what? It's something unnecessary, and more useful things also don't take a long time to implement (e.g. Ship names).



You argument is flawed as it can be turned around. Nobody cares if YOU need a HUD clock, because you can't be bothered to turn your head a few degrees more to look at the clock in your systray ;-).

And it's also flawed because FD should care about what customers want: That means revenue. But as you see, there are ongoing price discussions about Horizons expansion. On the other side, we have companies who listen more to their customer base (e.g. CIG) and get more funding - for a game that isn't even finished (!).

Kind of funny to see FD fail on so many levels and suffer the financial consequences for it. And yet, we see people defending them. I'll grab some popcorn.

Yeah, about that CIG bit....I'm a backer, I loaded up the new 2.2 alpha, I can't play, crashes whenever I get in my ship in my hanger or try to leave my hanger. I go to the Universe and as long as I don't try to use anything, I'm good, which means I can't get my ship and fly it, or enter anyone else's ship, if I do, crash. And this crash is the nasty kind, I can't 3 finger reboot, I have to physically power my machine off and back on, so it's totally unplayable for me, and many others according to the forums over there. This isn't the first time this has happened either, first few versions of Arena Commander did this to me and many others. Many people have this problem with every single version of Arena Commander and the alpha they've put out.

So, you were saying?

 

[CoreHaven]

So what? It's something unnecessary, and more useful things also don't take a long time to implement (e.g. Ship names).



You argument is flawed as it can be turned around. Nobody cares if YOU need a HUD clock, because you can't be bothered to turn your head a few degrees more to look at the clock in your systray ;-).

And it's also flawed because FD should care about what customers want: That means revenue. But as you see, there are ongoing price discussions about Horizons expansion. On the other side, we have companies who listen more to their customer base (e.g. CIG) and get more funding - for a game that isn't even finished (!).

Kind of funny to see FD fail on so many levels and suffer the financial consequences for it. And yet, we see people defending them. I'll grab some popcorn.

The game has slews of time based missions. The game also refreshes it's missions every 5 minutes. And look at your sys tray to tell the time? You mean actually minimize the game and look to check time?

Look man since the game has time based mechanics, it could use a clock. Hell it already shows up when you are docked. It's nothing. And not a major addition. Just a quality of life improvement for players. Hush.