Casual POV about how grindy Engineers 2.0 might be

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…Same, I'm swimming in usless crap. But, if say the exchange rate is 3 to 1, then the swimming will not last for long. And we'll be back in the collect 100 X gameplay loop.

Obviously getting a G5 mod will take longer in the new system, but the question is will getting a "high-end" G5 take longer or will it take less time?

I suspect that with the new system we will get "soft caps" - after a certain value the results form G5 rolls will get smaller and smaller - and we already have a hard cap on the effect a mod has on a ship (but I guess a hard cap on the modification is required too)

Getting from Gn to Gn+1 takes 3 or 4 rolls in the current system. That's 9 rolls from G1 to G4.

The questing is now how long will it take to reach the soft cap value for a G5 mod?
If it's just a few dozen rolls this will allow much more players to get really good ships. Getting to the hard cap will take much longer.
If the hard cap is not that much different to the soft cap, then not going the extra mile to get to the hard cap value won't be punishing that much.

If done right the new system could offer advantages for casual gamers and "high-end" gamers - the only ones who would probably be sad about the changes are those who enjoy grinding.
If not done right the new system could be much worse than the current system.

It all depends on how many rolls are required to get from start to G5 "really good" and how much the buyable secondaries cost.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You don't need 100 rolls, you never need 100 rolls that's the thing with grindyness it's not the game it's just how you approach it. I'll happily go with three rolls and collect stuff as and when, yet I have multiple god-modules. The most G5's I ever did was about seven to get two expanded ammo missile launchers with the same ammo count.

People arguing about 'additional rolls' forget that you will always get positive roll.

That alone offsets huge amount of rolls people imagine there to be.

 

[Robert Maynard]

People arguing about 'additional rolls' forget that you will always get positive roll.

That alone offsets huge amount of rolls people imagine there to be.

Not at all. The first G5 roll on a stock module, under the current system, is already pretty much guaranteed to be an improvement and is achieved in 1 roll.

The removal of the possibility of poorer rolls merely reduces the number of rolls required to asymptotically approach the new maxima (as, presumably, the existing "out-of-range" RNG will be removed from the implementation).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
You don't need 100 rolls, you never need 100 rolls that's the thing with grindyness it's not the game it's just how you approach it. I'll happily go with three rolls and collect stuff as and when, yet I have multiple god-modules. …

Tell that my modules.
I don't have any "god-roll" modules. Not even close.
I once spend over 15 rolls on a shield just to get an acceptable G5 shield - acceptable as in close to the max primary value. Every time I got a good roll the secondary rolls ruined it big time.
That's the problem with RNG. It can be quick and easy and it can be "hell".

The new system with "every roll better" without random secondaries is exactly what I need. It will reduce the grind created by RNG.
What we don't know is how many materials do we need to get a good G5 mod and how much those secondary effects will cost. This could result in quite a bit of material farming - but at least it we will see a progression and not getting punished most of the time.

 

[Stigbob]

Tell that my modules.
I don't have any "god-roll" modules. Not even close.
I once spend over 15 rolls on a shield just to get an acceptable G5 shield - acceptable as in close to the max primary value. Every time I got a good roll the secondary rolls ruined it big time.
That's the problem with RNG. It can be quick and easy and it can be "hell".

The new system with "every roll better" without random secondaries is exactly what I need. It will reduce the grind created by RNG.
What we don't know is how many materials do we need to get a good G5 mod and how much those secondary effects will cost. This could result in quite a bit of material farming - but at least it we will see a progression and not getting punished most of the time.

I don't pay much attention at all to the secondary's, they are still a massive step up from anything basic (and I've been really lucky with them anyway on my best of three approach). But you're right the every roll better change should eliminate it for a lot of people.

The grindlords however will keep at it (and keep moaning) no matter what results they get.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

They should just change materials gathering, this is not going to end well at all I believe, the current system would be fine if we got a few more rolls.

Agreed.

 

[Raefkrad]

The trouble is the only reason the system is being changed is because it takes too long to prepare a pvp metaship under the current model, so anything that doesn't result in taking a lot less time to achieve a god ship will be beaten up badly by those that actually participate in serious engineering (and let's face it, who cares about those who are happy with average rolls, this change is not catering to them anyway).

They should just change materials gathering, this is not going to end well at all I believe, the current system would be fine if we got a few more rolls.

Pretty much THIS! Adjust the drop rate of materials/data, increase storage of same, loosen up the engineering RNG a LITTLE, add the materials broker. Keep the system otherwise as is (NO rolling thru the grades for each grade 5) Less coding, fewer chances to introduce more bugs/exploits. I rather like the ability to own a unique ship/module. Most of the convoluted modifications proposed would not be needed IMHO.

 

[Mengy]

People arguing about 'additional rolls' forget that you will always get positive roll.

That alone offsets huge amount of rolls people imagine there to be.

No it doesn’t, at least not for the people who aren’t min/maxers.

There are a lot of great improvements in the proposed engineer revamp, but the new “grade grind” is not one of them. For the min/maxers it will be an improvement, but for the players who would just roll a G5 mod a couple of times and take the best they got, for them this will add a lot of new grind to the process.

• Material Trader – great new feature, helps out finding hard to get mats.
• Positive Only Rolls – fantastic change, makes every gamble at least somewhat rewarding.
• Material Inventory Cap to 100 for Each Mat – also very nice improvement, aids the mat management side.
• Allowing pinned blueprints to mod at outfitting stations – great QoL change, reduces travel times for engineering.
• Forcing Players to Grind through all of the grades just to get to G5 – Terrible idea and a large step backward, what is the added value of implementing something like this? The only thing it accomplishes is prolonging the entire process for the player.

 

[KING5TON]

The only question that has merit is, is the proposed new system as boring and arduous as the old system?

If yes then FD are wasting their time.

The problem with engineering is it's a boring and arduous process. Fixing it requires making it less boring and arduous not changing slightly how boring and arduous it is.

That's why people don't like using it.It's a PITA and makes you jump through too many unfun hoops

 

[Muetdhiver]

For regular

very casual players - no change. If one only dips in G1/G2 the changes will be barely noticable.
focused dipping - mixed feelings : no more G3 worse than G2, OTOH grind will be déjà vu all over again for your second G5 fsd...
Dedicated PvErs - wellcome to the craft-to-trash hell, every 'basic' G4 or G5 will cost you at least 10x more rolls than before.
MinMaxers - possible time saving : the loss of time in going from G1 to G5 might be more than compensated by the the time saved in getting a 'good' G5 roll (say, 20-25 times).
UberGrindlords - Zeno paradox hell '^^ You will not get that last .01% XD

I must say I have a very hard time understanding FD's addiction to grinding loops. It seems like a reflex to use it as a crutch
anytime there is a barebone/not fully fleshed out mechanic in the game. Which means pretty much all the game... is filled with grindy loops and time gating.

 

[galahad2069]

No it doesn’t, at least not for the people who aren’t min/maxers.

There are a lot of great improvements in the proposed engineer revamp, but the new “grade grind” is not one of them. For the min/maxers it will be an improvement, but for the players who would just roll a G5 mod a couple of times and take the best they got, for them this will add a lot of new grind to the process.

• Material Trader – great new feature, helps out finding hard to get mats.
• Positive Only Rolls – fantastic change, makes every gamble at least somewhat rewarding.
• Material Inventory Cap to 100 for Each Mat – also very nice improvement, aids the mat management side.
• Allowing pinned blueprints to mod at outfitting stations – great QoL change, reduces travel times for engineering.
• Forcing Players to Grind through all of the grades just to get to G5 – Terrible idea and a large step backward, what is the added value of implementing something like this? The only thing it accomplishes is prolonging the entire process for the player.

If every single player is guaranteed to get to the exact same module stats after X rolls, then the whole engineering process will be nothing more than another huge time sink*. Min/max people will just continue to whine about how long it takes to get their ultimate "AA-rated" (god-rolled) module, while they might as well buy it at the click of a button.

(* It is already a huge time sink as it is implemented right now, but the main problem is not that the RNG prevents you from being able to get the exact same module stats as your favourite opponent. It's just that it takes a ridiculously long time to gather enough material to get a module which is close enough to the "ideal" god roll, where the differences become insignificant.)