Caustic Generator head scratching

[CMDR X]

Help me out Crew.
Build (Enhanced Xeno Scanner)

My first attempt at the Maelstrom trying to collect mats and samples from the generators.
I scan, sub-target, launch and connect with the research limpet successfully.

Here is where the problems start:

1. Why do I have to rub noses with the generator to target it and get a scan, with the Enhanced X Scanner?
2. After attaching the research limpet, how come I die because I can't launch repair and caustic limpets?
This while trying with 70% hull remaining and spamming limpets hoping that they launch (red in HUD).

Does the increased distance capabilities of the Enhanced Xeno Scanner not apply here?
Is there a limitation on the 3B Xeno Multi Limpet Controller that I am not aware of?
Could this be another EDO bug and I should just go back to Legacy again to pew?

Confused..
o7

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

No, it's deliberate design decisions that force you to get close to the generators. You either have to tank the damage or avoid the caustic cloud. Or realistically a bit of both.

 

[CMDR X]

Welp, more stupid deliberate design decisions that force me to go back to pew in Legacy.

Thx CMDR

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

If you watch the latest Frame Shift Live they had one of the designers on explain the decision process.

It's built so that there's gameplay there rather than "scan from distance pick up mats risk free". CMDRs want content, we get content

 

[CMDR X]

I'm all fine with that Monkey but I am not fine with the deliberate nerfing of otherwise working tools for the sake of "forced gameplay". If I have an Enhanced Xeno Scanner fitted, I expect it to function as such. Same goes for launching multiple limpets at one time.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

1. Why do I have to rub noses with the generator to target it and get a scan, with the Enhanced X Scanner?

Probably because your sensors are either not engineered or lighweighted, decreasing their regular range (which gets reduced even more inside the maelstrom).

2. After attaching the research limpet, how come I die because I can't launch repair and caustic limpets?
This while trying with 70% hull remaining and spamming limpets hoping that they launch (red in HUD).

You have to have no target selected to launch limpets at your own ship. Untarget the caustic generator, launch the limpets, retarget it.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I'm all fine with that Monkey but I am not fine with the deliberate nerfing of otherwise working tools for the sake of "forced gameplay". If I have an Enhanced Xeno Scanner fitted, I expect it to function as such. Same goes for launching multiple limpets at one time.

the Xeno scanner is not responsible for being able to target something, enhanced or otherwise. The "enhanced" part means you can get a scan at a longer range, but that relies on you being able to target in the first place.

I have no clue if sensor range plays a role in the Maelstrom, but I know that targeting in the Maelstrom is tricky from the get go; possibly because the environment in the Maelstrom influences the sensors? I don't know. I know that you have to get really close to be able to target and scan the caustic generators, and that judging distance in the Maelstrom is really hard. You have no frame of reference, and the caustic generators are larger than you might think.

A bit like the reverse of "objects in the mirror might be closer than they appear".

As for the limpets: That is user error. If you have something targeted, you launch the limpet at the target, which you cannot do with repair limpets and caustic generators. If you want to repair or decontaminate your ship and note something else, you need to clear your target.

 

[CMDR X]

Ned, Helmut thanks for the reply. I will give it a try again keeping these in mind. o7

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

No worries. I was very confused at first too, and I am going to change my sensors to long range to see if it makes a difference, but judging distances and sizes is really, really difficult inside the Maelstrom cloud. It feels like you have to stick you nose right up to the target to get a scan off.

 

[CMDR X]

No worries. I was very confused at first too, and I am going to change my sensors to long range to see if it makes a difference, but judging distances and sizes is really, really difficult inside the Maelstrom cloud. It feels like you have to stick you nose right up to the target to get a scan off.

If you check out my build in OP you will see I have 4D Sensors at G4 long range (8km). It makes zero difference.

 

[Zador]

Yes sensor range is very important, there was a thread that included this, let me find it... here
Here's my build I used for collecting quite a few samples with A-rated long range sensors I could target the generators from around 1.1km
But that was a little while ago, not sure if they made them harder to target since then.

 

[shockbait]

If you check out my build in OP you will see I have 4D Sensors at G4 long range (8km). It makes zero difference.

You need A-rated, and probably engineered, sensors in the Maelstroms. My Clipper with G4 Long Range A-rated sensors was able to target from 1.2km, plenty of wiggle room to watch them dance while sampling.

I'm not expert on the Maelstroms or the ways they alter our ship stats, but my guess would be there's some algorithm based on the Rating of our modules, as well as all the math to do with strengths and ranges.

It could be something as simple as " If 'Sensors < A' 'reduce targeting range to 500m' ", then engineering bonuses and Maelstrom dampening is applied.

 

[Darrack]

You need A-rated, and probably engineered, sensors in the Maelstroms. My Clipper with G4 Long Range A-rated sensors was able to target from 1.2km, plenty of wiggle room to watch them dance while sampling.

I'm not expert on the Maelstroms or the ways they alter our ship stats, but my guess would be there's some algorithm based on the Rating of our modules, as well as all the math to do with strengths and ranges.

It could be something as simple as " If 'Sensors < A' 'reduce targeting range to 500m' ", then engineering bonuses and Maelstrom dampening is applied.

A rated helps but not required, i farmed all the materials in the Maelstrom with a 7D rated standard sensor on a cutter, the important thing is running cold (<15 ideally) and stay out of the green stuff.

O7

 

[shockbait]

My Clipper idles at 16%, gets up to 18% using the thrusters, but that seemed to be cold enough, didn't set off any mines while sampling, but I rarely came within 1000 meters of one. How close did you have to get to target them in that Cutter with 7Ds?

 

[Darrack]

My Clipper idles at 16%, gets up to 18% using the thrusters, but that seemed to be cold enough, didn't set off any mines while sampling, but I rarely came within 1000 meters of one. How close did you have to get to target them in that Cutter with 7Ds?

I was pretty much around 450m, nose to nose for scanning but got used to anticipating when it dropped the clouds.
Once the researcher was engaged i could drop back to around 2km.
My cutter has the Enhanced Scanner and a 7a Multi limpet.
It took some practice as too close and the things go boom so i was constantly using heat sinks.
7D sensors are still 5k distance and have way less power draw.

Lots of fun
O7

 

[Zador]

7D sensors are still 5k distance and have way less power draw.

7D sensors won't allow you to target the generators at 5km distance, more like 500m
7A long range sensors will allow you to target the generators at around 1.1km which makes for a much easier time avoiding caustic damage. Power draw is not really an issue.

 

[Darrack]

7D sensors won't allow you to target the generators at 5km distance, more like 500m
7A long range sensors will allow you to target the generators at around 1.1km which makes for a much easier time avoiding caustic damage. Power draw is not really an issue.

Point taken but i didn't need 5Km, getting close with cold running once i got the hang of it was pretty easy.

O7

 

[Wisho]

E: D maths generally work the same way : items have intrinsic characteristics, and physical rules between items are set once and for all and universal. Everything in-between results from these, there is mostly nothing like "If (something specific) then (behave differently)".

The effective detection range doesn't staticly equal the "typical range" written on the sensor's label.
Memories from old readings, please double-check before trusting :

Rule #2 : The effective detection is the typical range factored by essentially the target's heat signature. Means : a) for the same target, the hotter it is, the farther it will be detectable, b) the same target with the same heat will be resolved further away by sensors with longer typical ranges, c) a target without heat signature, like a shieldless ship on heatsink or running silent, can't be detected nor resolved unless you hit rule #1 below
Rule #1 : most (all ?) targets have an absolute "minimal range" at which they are detected and resolved whatsoever - varies between ~300m and ~1km for human ships, the larger the ship, the farther.

This explains why you can't hug an interceptor without being zapped/missiled/EMPed or hide right next to a human NPC. You can come as close as xxx meters (xxx depending on your ship) but the next meter, it will kiss you first.
My guess is the caustic generators are very cold so mostly rule #2 supersedes, but with very short effective ranges. And yes, physically they are BIG, not the small piece of scrap metal they look like from far away.

Additionally, rule #3 : human sensors always detect and resolve for 4 seconds whatever hit the ship/shields with a shot, whatever the distance, whatever the signature.
If you shoot at someone with a long range laser while running silent 5,99km away, you'll be targetable for the next 4 seconds and there is nothing you can do to avoid this.

Obviously Thargoids' detection works differently because 1) in their "sleep" phase we can slaughter them and they don't see sht as long as we remain <20% hot, and 2) the next second they can keep tracking and shooting at us even when we're flying shotless, thrustless and cold like a dead rock. Alien they are, dude.

 

[SENA-]

I my first runs to get the damn caustic sink ALL the generators I popped ( and I targeted ONLY those on the exterior ..) were guarded by a big, angry tharg... who will usually put himself BETWEEN my ship and the materials from the generator, popping all my limpets on the way... then will stay there for the next 3-5 min, waiting for me...
Couple of times I tried to run pass him... ended on re-buy screen
Man, was a 2 h pain in the a... to get the damn sink... Now I try the second time, with my other account, using all the experience accumulated... I build a Clipper who idle at 15 and go at 18 when advancing, I had 3 rows of heat sinks and a nice 7A multi controller ...
But I can do NOTHING, aside reading / writing in this Forum cuz the damn servers are down for more than 1h, for a "quick update"

 

[Aunty Sledge]

If it helps, once the limpet is attached you can destroy the generator and the limpet will still complete the research. Saves you having to chase after it and risk getting too close to another generator.

It all gets a lot easier once you have a couple of caustic sinks on your ship... but that's just the ironic part you won't be enjoying right now.