Changes are needed for making claims at new outposts

[Rat Catcher]

It's a hypothetical problem - in 99.9% of times there will be no-one trying to snipe a system. People love to worry about non-existent issues.

It's not like we're short of systems to colonise.

It's a bit like gankers in the game, to some there is a gank wing waiting for them in every system, seems pretty much the same with Colonisation, those naughty system gankers are waiting around every corner, waiting, malevelently in the shadows!

ETA: not saying it won't happen, it is a multiplayer game, after all, and not everyone is all sweetness and light

 

[Jmanis]

is that not a bit like the same argument that 99.9% of open is just as safe as solo.......

ie it is factually 100% accurate but also completely wrong at the same time because it is all the interesting places (engineer bases, CG locations) which are more dangerous.

so yes 99.9% of systems wont be likely to get sniped............ but the ones with loads of interesting layouts, or with ELWs and what not (i would love to colonise a system with an ELW with a planetary ring for instance) that are deep out in the black that players may spend many months slowly working out towards....... I genuinely think they WILL be very likely to get sniped.

Popular system is popular?

Here's the deal though... this is all basically to ensure the wrong person doesn't get to claim a system... but who's the right person?

• The solo player who tunneled all the way to that system?
• The streamer who has settled a dozen nebula with their thousand followers, and promised claims to their top-tier patreon subs?
• The player who sneaks it out from under everyone and offers to build it however people want, for ARX donations?
• The squadron who's claimed 99% of the systems in this pocket so far, and just needs to claim this one more for "the perfect bubble"?
• The person who first discovered it?
• The person who fully scanned the system?
• The person who took little Timmy to see that system in VR just before the tragically fatal icecream accident?
• Or... simply the first person there.

Personally, any attempt to govern this stuff invites disaster on multiple fronts. Trying to prevent "sniping" here is simply trying to state that your cause is more worthy than someone else's... any system can be circumvented, and I don't want to dance around on tenterhooks because old mate thought that a system was rightfully theirs because the axis of rotation of Jupiter was aligned with the North star when I thought "This looks like a good spot!"

 

[Shadowsnog]

It's a hypothetical problem

it really is not.
just in my very small circle multiple people were sniped out of some systems. and while there are more than enough random nondescript systems in the galaxy, there arent that many interesting, valuable systems. especially when you lower the search by proximity to high value colonisation targets, eg nebulae. argumenting that theres plenty of fish in the sea goes against the design of colonisation. i want to make the system mine, not any system. colonisation could have otherwise attribute you random system within the colonisation range. we choose the system we want to go for and put in the work to get it. thats hard. idly waiting for someone to do all the work and then claiming the fruit of labour is griefing using currently available ingame mechanics. but is it really intended within the colonisation design to allow for such?

It's a bit like gankers in the game, to some there is a gank wing waiting for them in every system, seems pretty much the same with Colonisation

the circumstances and results are vastly different though. when you get ganked you can still defend yourself or at least escape. and you lose just few credits, not permanent access to an asset.
this is like you building a ship and then someone comes, shoots you in the head and steals your ship. could be fun, but its not part of this games design.

a system was rightfully theirs because the axis of rotation of Jupiter

when group of players dedicates their lives to bridging and colonising distant system, makes and populates every step of the way; and another group dedicates their lives to waiting, doing nothing, and then claiming the most valuable targets at the destination, would you still be confused on who "deserves" the final systems?

 

[Bigmaec]

Popular system is popular?

Here's the deal though... this is all basically to ensure the wrong person doesn't get to claim a system... but who's the right person?

• The solo player who tunneled all the way to that system?
• The streamer who has settled a dozen nebula with their thousand followers, and promised claims to their top-tier patreon subs?
• The player who sneaks it out from under everyone and offers to build it however people want, for ARX donations?
• The squadron who's claimed 99% of the systems in this pocket so far, and just needs to claim this one more for "the perfect bubble"?
• The person who first discovered it?
• The person who fully scanned the system?
• The person who took little Timmy to see that system in VR just before the tragically fatal icecream accident?
• Or... simply the first person there.

Personally, any attempt to govern this stuff invites disaster on multiple fronts. Trying to prevent "sniping" here is simply trying to state that your cause is more worthy than someone else's... any system can be circumvented, and I don't want to dance around on tenterhooks because old mate thought that a system was rightfully theirs because the axis of rotation of Jupiter was aligned with the North star when I thought "This looks like a good spot!"

What about a new claim reservation for systems NOW discovered? I'd like that. Then people have to work for their systems.

 

[Rat Catcher]

We put our name as architect on a system, and that is all the 'ownership' we have on it...

Yes, I'm sure that folk want to stamp their name on a pretty system, and will be upset if someone else gets there first - but it is a multiplayer game, and the rules on colonisation are clear that it is whoever gets there first, gets to develop the system for the faction issuing the beacon contract...

The bigger player groups are in a position to expand the colonisation bubble far more efficiently than a single player, or a handful of players working together, andthat will, ineveitably, mean that "Solo Sid" might miss the system of their dreams because they couldn't get there fast enough - tough, sure, but none of us players are entitled to something just because we want it, are we?

 

[Dillon Fallon]

What about a new claim reservation for systems NOW discovered? I'd like that. Then people have to work for their systems.

Isn't that going to be around 2500 ly out the bubble? Someone else is hauling for that daisy chain.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Popular system is popular?

Here's the deal though... this is all basically to ensure the wrong person doesn't get to claim a system... but who's the right person?

• The solo player who tunneled all the way to that system?
• The streamer who has settled a dozen nebula with their thousand followers, and promised claims to their top-tier patreon subs?
• The player who sneaks it out from under everyone and offers to build it however people want, for ARX donations?
• The squadron who's claimed 99% of the systems in this pocket so far, and just needs to claim this one more for "the perfect bubble"?
• The person who first discovered it?
• The person who fully scanned the system?
• The person who took little Timmy to see that system in VR just before the tragically fatal icecream accident?
• Or... simply the first person there.

Personally, any attempt to govern this stuff invites disaster on multiple fronts. Trying to prevent "sniping" here is simply trying to state that your cause is more worthy than someone else's... any system can be circumvented, and I don't want to dance around on tenterhooks because old mate thought that a system was rightfully theirs because the axis of rotation of Jupiter was aligned with the North star when I thought "This looks like a good spot!"

i definitely see your point..... FD will do what FD will do, however i think beta is the time to at least discuss this stuff.

personally i think if it were me involved in making the rules........then once the system is completed the system architect has 24 hrs to "finialise" the system for it to go online (if they dont then it auto goes online on its own) and also the system architect should get maybe 5 mins post going online to be the 1st person to make a claim from the colonisation tab.

I believe this is fair because if they are the ones who did the legwork to work out to a system them imo they at least deserved a shout at calling dibbs. there would still be competition for really choice systems because multiple people could colonise a system within range of the "good" ones so would still be a race but it means an architect would always have an advantage over a sniper.

things like streamers i dont think should get any priority, tho if you can think of a reason why i am wrong then feel free to share. (not sure if you were being facetious)

BTW more than anything else tho i think there should be a sensible construction time for these things. being able to built a massive space station in a week - even if you have 100s of people helping - is daft imo.

sure let us deliver all the stuff quickly, but imo it should still take a set amount of time for the construction to happen. (small bases have a shorted mimimum time than large ones)

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

none of us players are entitled to something just because we want it, are we?

perhaps not..... but we are entitled to give our thoughts on it in a period which is a beta however surely?.
(clearly you like it as it is and dont think it should change... and that is fine as well)

 

[Shadowsnog]

The bigger player groups are in a position to expand the colonisation bubble far more efficiently than a single player, or a handful of players working together, andthat will, ineveitably, mean that "Solo Sid" might miss the system of their dreams because they couldn't get there fast enough - tough, sure, but none of us players are entitled to something just because we want it, are we?

the real fun happens when a group expands the colonisation bubble aiming for a certain target and the solo sid claims it without attributing anything to the previous work.
i understand you have very nonchalant attitude towards these things and generally i agree. its just pixels, git gud, theres more things to do or whatever...
but this is a bit different.
mainly in the effort required to do the work and effort required to grief the result.
colonisation is already consuming vast amount of time and effort and we are still mostly within the bubble. the effort and time required will only rise with the distance, and not by a small margin. especially if you would like to build anything larger than a juice box at the desired destination.
despite being just letters and pixels on the screen, we are people. we dedicate to this our lives, our time living on this planet. and couple of sniping bystanders can just wait and negate all of that with less energy than it is required to raise a middle finger, permanently locking people out. theres no rebuy screen for colonisation. this isnt just ship go boom.
and while solving this issue would be pretty hard, if there are options i would like frontier to pursue them.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

i want to make the system mine, not any system

That probably depends on just how specific your requirements are.

- decent number of bodies, maybe some planetary rings: there are thousands of these scattered about the existing edges, you might not get your first choice but you'll get something, especially as existing claims continue to be completed and expand the collective radius further
- has specific personal value to you but nothing quantitatively unusual: chances of anyone else happening to rush for this is tiny
- ELW: there's probably only a few tens of these available at any time and they're really obvious targets, so no matter what the rules are you're probably not going to get one at this stage.
- in a nebula: chaining out to any non-Pleiades nebula is a major project with multiple tens of steps needed; you can probably assume if you're trying to do it solo that some organised group will overtake you anyway because they're really obvious targets; organised groups would generally be inconvenienced by "snipe protection" because they want to be able to spread out the architect roles anyway. But nebula are big enough that if you're sniped to one system you can get another one that's also got a good view of it
- a specific system in a distant nebula: there is no level of snipe protection possible that would prevent one organised group chaining out thousands of LY, and a second organised group just racing them to the finish line from a few systems back.

Isn't that going to be around 2500 ly out the bubble?

At the end of last year I found some previously undiscovered systems - including an ELW in one of them! - slightly under 1000 LY from Sol (though far enough below the galactic plane that it was almost certainly unchainable in that case). But the 15 LY range limit means you have to stick fairly close to the galactic plane, so 2500 might be a reasonable guess in those directions (unless you're into brown dwarf systems, but you probably don't need to reserve those)

I believe this is fair because if they are the ones who did the legwork to work out to a system them imo they at least deserved a shout at calling dibbs

The Architect doesn't have to be the same person as the majority contributor to the hauling, though.
(Indeed, the Architect doesn't have to haul a single tonne themselves, in theory)

A rule where the largest individual hauler to the system got first refusal on onward colonisation for a short period of time might be justifiable on the "legwork" basis, but the consequences of doing so are obvious.

 

[Shadowsnog]

there is no level of snipe protection possible that would prevent one organised group chaining out thousands of LY, and a second organised group just racing them to the finish line from a few systems back.

id still like to think that this is a crystal coffin* situation

Spoiler: *

remains to be seen

 

[Rat Catcher]

perhaps not..... but we are entitled to give our thoughts on it in a period which is a beta however surely?.

Oh yes, feedback will always be offered, often with a slight bias.

But, when the details were given about the new feature, it was quite clearly stated that anyone could lay claim to a system if they had a beacon within range of the issuer, literally 'first come, first served'

Feedback was invited on the following:

The aim of the Beta is to gather data and feedback specifically focused on resource balancing. We are happy with the System Colonisation feature itself and whilst we are always happy for you to share your feedback the aim of this Beta is aimed firmly at resource balancing and not changes to the feature itself.

To help us in our balancing we will be using this thread for you to share your feedback on the following areas:

• Amount of resources required
• Amount of time/distance taken to complete tasks

So, providing feedback because it doesn't meet with how one considers things should be done, wasn't requested. (I highlighted the request, not the OP)

(clearly you like it as it is and dont think it should change... and that is fine as well)

I just think that FD knew exactly what they were doing, and also knew that there would be, as always, objections to how they have implemented a feature.
Perhaps my attitude is wrong, in that, although I normally only bother playing with a dozen or so other players, this is a multiplayer game and other players also wish to play their way. Yeah, it'd suck if somone had set their heart on FRYUP 2 SAUSAGES and someone else got it first, but it is life, in truth, aspire, but no guarantee of success.

 

[Bigmaec]

Isn't that going to be around 2500 ly out the bubble? Someone else is hauling for that daisy chain.

Soon™

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

(I highlighted the request, not the OP)

Sorry, I can't read that - can you make it a bit larger, and maybe a bit brighter?

 

[Factabulous]

The Architect doesn't have to be the same person as the majority contributor to the hauling, though.
(Indeed, the Architect doesn't have to haul a single tonne themselves, in theory)

Yup

 

[Rat Catcher]

Yup
View attachment 420419

Lazy so-&-so, that architect, an Imperial, maybe?

 

[Factabulous]

Lazy so-&-so, that architect, an Imperial, maybe?

She's related to that other Jameson, so only flies Cobras - and hence is useless for cargo but very good at ordering people around

 

[lanier67]

Yeah, I don't think you understand the context. I don't own a bunch of systems. I own one that was the bridge to the system I wanted and it's a terrible system with only a couple bodies and no planets you can land on. So as of right now, I don't have any actual systems. I only want one longterm, and it's getting to be slim pickings around the bubble until they extend the range. Don't assume it's greed. And like I said, I want something with a decent name, too. That makes up like 2% of the galaxy, but that's irrelevent. I just don't like that you can put in a lot of work to try to get your system for someone else to swoop in and get all of the benefits.

Something you haven't claimed isn't yours, it actually is that easy. I spent 2 evenings scanning the systems and in the end claimed 2. They have awful names, but the rest is nice. Of course everyone wants something specific but it is the nature of a shared galaxy, that you won't always get what you want. Just search around the bubble for something, that fits the bill for you and claim it instead of building an intricate daisy chain to some system that isn't available yet and complain when it becomes available, that you didn't get it. There are so many systems around the bubble that you can claim. For me it sounds like you set yourself up for disappointment

 

[Ian Doncaster]

id still like to think that this is a crystal coffin* situation

Spoiler: *

remains to be seen

Other than cases where the stars are sparse enough that there is only one comparably efficient route to the target, how exactly?

You've got a high-profile target 1000 LY away, and it's the only obvious single-system target (planetary nebula, maybe?) worth doing that long a chain for.
You've done all the hard work to get a chain out the first 950 LY, so there's four hops still to go (maybe more).
What possible restriction can be applied at this point to stop another group jumping in its Fleet Carriers (fully loaded, while yours are returning to restock after finishing the 950 LY system) and racing you to the line for the last 50 LY, making the first 95% of the work largely irrelevant to securing the final claim?

Certainly none of the restrictions - even the more extreme ones - discussed in this thread would have any effect on that case at all, except maybe giving the first group a five-minute head start.

I feel very confident that - even if Frontier accepts that sniping is a problem at all - they're not going to give System Architects a permanent right to lock everyone else out of their systems' colonisation contact. And anything smaller than that either doesn't work at all, or just shifts the position of the key bit of the race slightly but doesn't otherwise affect the result.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

I'd say that FDev knew for sure what 'claims' players would make to be the system architect of that certain and unique system. But what can they do? @Jmanis post stated it quite exhaustively what reasons could exist why somebody wants to claim a system and those reasons all make sense from their specific point of view.

So what can you do as a game designer when you are aware of this quandary? FDev decided to fall back on RL's and Elite's lore: Apply the rules of the 'Cutthroat Galaxy', meaning the meanest and fastest will claim the system. That includes 'sniping' as long as no cheating through external tools is applied. If the claimed system happens to be a system which Cannon group or Hutton Truckers or any other faction are aiming for, then it is their loss. Anyway, as far as I can see it: a colonised system does neither lead to a 'win Elite' situation nor is it game breaking in any other way (apart from the out-of-immersion names but that is another issue).

To be clear: I don't like the whole sniping attitude nor the personal entitlement to claim a certain system at all because I am a co-op player in Elite and RL but honestly, there's probably no other choice, except stopping the whole colonisation thing. For myself, I will wait about a year - until then, only a few hardcore solo players and several more groups will still be daisy-chaining systems in a much bigger radius around the bubble than it is now. I am sure that until then, I can find a nice little, not too exciting system for a backwater outpost for weary explorers. And if doesn't play out as I've planned? Well, then it won't. My life won't end.

Until then, I will watch the show.