Changes are needed for making claims at new outposts

[Jmanis]

There it is. Inconvenience everyone on a matter unrelated (and tell yourself that it isn't really an inconvenience ACTUALLY) so that your issue is better served. How about no? How about you have to figure out a solution that doesn't require the rest of us to give up core game functionality?

As a quick aside... I'm 99% sure that you can't change the aligned faction of a squadron anyway. But you just dump the squadron and create a new one, job done.

But also, squadrons and factional allegience are not pre-requisite to colonising anyway... so it's not even an issue I guess.

 

[Factabulous]

As a quick aside... I'm 99% sure that you can't change the aligned faction of a squadron anyway. But you just dump the squadron and create a new one, job done.

You can now ... but when I did that on one of my commandos I didn't get the new - or the old - faction when I started a new system. So maybe wait a bit if you change.

 

[Kaocraft]

-if you arent part of the squad-faction that colonised a system (potentially only system out in black), you have to wait a day a time period before you can use that systems colonisation contact

Please recognize what that state of affairs is going to look like from the perspective of all the other players: We're going to be hopping around from system to system hoping to stake claims and constantly landing at stations which have their colonization contact (temporarily) disabled. It's going to be a crap shoot every time you try to find a station to make a claim from. It'll get annoying real fast. To mitigate this, Frontier would need to implement all kinds of GUI and UX changes, probably GalMap filters, too, and even if they implemented your suggestion, we both know they wouldn't bother doing any of the attendant housekeeping necessary to make it look like a bug rather than a feature for most users.

We already have so much stuff like that. It's pretty much the whole reason none of my friends play anymore, and they absolutely refuse to give the game another go now. It's also why I don't ever recommend this game to anyone no matter how much I may enjoy it, because it'll reflect poorly on me to suggest that most people will have a fun time.

Frontier have over the years been slowly chipping away at these kinds of issues. The game is in a better state of clarity and useability now than at any point I can recall. But new problems keep coming up, and with each new feature it's a long slog of feedback and borderline political activism to draw enough attention to an issue to get it fixed.

This isn't by itself a reason not to do your or any other idea, but it's worth looking at any potential "fix" from the perspective of how the average clueless user is going to first encounter it. And for them, it's going to be a series of confusing and irritating moments where a game feature appears to be suddenly Not Working for no clear reason. Is this worth the tradeoff so that you can have your one specific system? What is the payoff for everybody else?

 

[Jmanis]

You can now ... but when I did that on one of my commandos I didn't get the new - or the old - faction when I started a new system. So maybe wait a bit if you change.

Huh. TIL. Still stands to dump the sqn if any sort of restrictuon got put in, but then of course we get into "Can't join a sqn for a week after leaving" territory. Again just more inconvenience.

On that note, time to see if i can switch to League of Reparation still....

 

[Jmanis]

<snip>What is the payoff for everybody else?

Yep. Much like how sniping isn't going to happen 99.999% of the time... 99% of the player base who are doing colonisation are probably going to look at such rules and go "What's this for? This is kinda dumb..."

FD said from the get-go... Colonisation is about growing the bubble... not turf wars, not empire building. Just growing the bubble. This gives more credence to the idea I've bandied about that Colonisation was probably meant to be a BGS, NPC driven affair. But I for one, given how the BGS goes, can't see a way for that to happen without an explosion of exponential, unfettered colonies across the galaxy on a daily basis... faster than even the most dedicated group. So with that in mind, of course FD don't really care who gets what or whether the process is fair or not.

Rules beget the spirit of the rules, and with the spirit of the rules will come the endless greivances just like we have with C&P or solo vs open threads, where "This is meant to help me get my initial claim! Someone worked around it! This needs to be patched out!" as is evidenced throughout the game. End of the day... there's a baseline design goal for what FD want to implement... just like with the BGS, players will be motivated by and/or use those systems in perhaps unintended ways... that's fine... but people forget that they're on their own when it comes to the rules.

Much like the people who go deep with the BGS... this is just like gambling on the outcome of a national election, and demanding the electoral process to change it's rules so that gambling works better... it just makes no sense.

 

[benvhic]

I 100% disagree. A big long 50 system path to god-knows-where and we don't know where it is headed (maybe 50 more systems to its final glorious destination? How I am supposed to know?) should have defacto claim to any system along the path it is traveling by?

No. An innocent cmdr looking for a fantastic system can not possibly know the intentions of this random group. Unless your suggestion is that it is required to contact the group and gain permission prior to claiming any system in their "region of space".

This has already seemed to lead to issues in the community, and I don't blame anyone for feeling like their claim was taken or feeling upset for being accused of taking someone's claim. The system as it is kind of leads to these chaotic bottlenecks where maybe no one is at fault. Like it's been said, you can't predict where others are going and people contacting each other outside the game is probably not gonna happen. I don't see these issues going away unless range is increased giving people more options OR introduce staking. Allow people to "stake" a claim far away with a certain amount of time to get to it and build the system. Within this period no one else can claim or stake the system. If you can't get to that far staked system whether through your own effort, friends, or random chaining then you lose the stake.

Unless some orderly system is introduced in game to claim further or just stake a system (but still have to 15 ly chain to it within the set period) it's gonna inevitably be some chaos and drama. If it were me I'd try to do something with staking, and also reward construction or range points for helping others build their stations. That way people are encouraged to help build up what's already there. If community is a care that would certainly foster it. If colonization was \community centric: every system a barn raising, extend the range in orderly way, it would probably do more than quell drama but strengthen the feeling of community even in game with commanders you never talk to. Like, "Hey this person helped build my system. They got points for it but still took time to help so that makes me feel better about the galaxy!" or "This person helped daisy chain the gaps to my 100 ly stake. I might not have made it in time without their help! I'm gonna friend them and ask if they want my help with anything!"

I'd love to see stuff like that, it would be so positive. Not holding out hopes, I'm taking it slow myself until the bugs are ironed, yet dang this colonization thing could supercharge the game for a long time and really uplift+strengthen the community-which is energy that goes back into supporting the game.

 

[Nowski]

I started thinking about this back in December[1]. Clearly there's no perfect solution, as illustrated by the numerous scenarios posited in this thread, but the underlying issue is (I still believe) nonetheless worth considering.

A solution which meets most concerns without being a perfect solution is better than no solution at all; as the saying goes: "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

My suggestion:

• Once hauling is complete the primary station arrives in the system and is dockable as at present.
• The colonisation contact is initially unavailable to anyone (including the architect).
• The system architect, via the system map, can "sign off" the construction, at which point the colonisation contact comes online.
• If the architect doesn't sign off in X hours (12, say) or at the next weekly tick, whichever is sooner, the contact comes online automatically.

This doesn't create a watertight guarantee, it doesn't make sniping impossible, but (as far as I can tell) it makes it much more difficult to pull off.

By allowing the architect to sit in the station ready to access the contact, and choose the moment the contact becomes available, it tilts the balance significantly in favour of the player or player group who (most of the time) will have done the work to build the system, and that's all that can reasonably be done, IMO. Whether or not that juice is worth the development squeeze only fdev can really judge.

Footnote 1: (the evidence)
Exhibit 1:


Exhibit 2

(edited for clarity (again))

 

[AngryAntz]

Lots of people seem to be quoting the "majority". You know what the majority DON'T do, read or contribute to the forums (or any other site). So when I see "majority" or "most" used in an discussion, I usually take it to mean the "majority" within the contributors bias group agree with them. Quite regularly their bias group seems to consists of a group of 1, them

 

[Shadowsnog]

There it is. Inconvenience everyone on a matter unrelated (and tell yourself that it isn't really an inconvenience ACTUALLY) so that your issue is better served. How about no? How about you have to figure out a solution that doesn't require the rest of us to give up core game functionality?

How often does your squadron swap factions? And for what purpose?

• The system architect, via the system map, can "sign off" the construction, at which point the colonisation contact comes online.
• If the architect doesn't sign off in X hours (12, say) or at the next weekly tick, whichever is sooner, the contact comes online automatically.

This is good.

 

[Screemonster]

It's going to be really fun when we get situations like someone watching a string of colonies stretching out into the black, running ahead of it to see what it could be aiming for, and finding a system with a genuinely completely undiscovered ELW or something and plonking a claim on it, when the actual next system in the chain was some planetless k-class 5ly to the right

 

[Jmanis]

How often does your squadron swap factions? And for what purpose?

Mine switches to whatever faction i plan on supporting for a bit in order to get situational awareness, whenever i need to do that. Quite often that's a story related faction.

And now, i guess I'll switch whenever i want to get a particular faction expanded somewhere.

Though is good news knowing i don't have to redo the sqn every time now.

Edit: FWIW, my regular "faction" was never meant to a big empire builder... by our lore it was always intended to be a paramilitary outfit supporting other likeminded factions.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This doesn't create a watertight guarantee, it doesn't make sniping impossible, but (as far as I can tell) it makes it much more difficult to pull off.

If we're considering the "simple" case where the architect is finishing their own "final hop" system, and it's the few minutes delay of them getting between the construction ship and the new station, then sure, it'd cover that and probably wouldn't need anywhere as long as 12 hours. That seems to be the case that most people in this thread are worried about anyway.

In terms of interface and side-effects, I prefer the "pre-reservation" options people have suggested, where the architect can start a new system claim at any time, including presuming the success of their current system, using a contact on the megaship - but of course if they don't finish this system within the hour, they won't have time to drop the beacon and get a claim timeout - that way the Architect doesn't have to remember to press a button which isn't currently part of the process, but anyone wishing to chain from their system in a different direction is unaffected entirely whether the Architect is online or offline, present or absentee, etc.

How often does your squadron swap factions? And for what purpose?

Since it's a new feature just available for the last three months or so, I doubt many players are designing their squadrons around regular use of it. But there are tens of thousands of squadrons out there, so if each squadron only changes faction allegiance once a decade on average, that's still multiple allegiance changes a day. Support doesn't need extra tickets for something which is currently self-service, when they could be helping people with actual problems out.

If I was running a bigger colonisation project than "one system" I'd probably use it quite a bit to mix up which factions each system had, rather than ending up with all of them having the same four. Mercenary factions (whether BGS, Powerplay, colonisation) might regularly re-align to fit their current employer, now that the option is available. There are potentially interesting uses for it for anyone not tied to the "one squadron = one faction" model of working - which with the removal of PMF addition, is perhaps going to become more common in future.

 

[Nowski]

the architect can start a new system claim at any time, including presuming the success of their current system, using a contact on the megaship

That is really effective, though whether adding contacts on the construction carrier only for the architect or adding a timer and a button in the system map is the more onerous task only fdev could answer.

I suspect the outcome is we'll never know because any development effort expended on behalf of this issue will be over budget, and the problem will seem much smaller a few months down the line when the "surface area" of colonisable space has grown and interest has reverted to the mean

 

[KRISXR]

I have an idea that may address the issue of the first come first serve system that's in place. This may have been mentioned in the last 12 pages, i haven't read all of it.

When a player finds a system they are interested in they apply for the rights to that system.
At the thursday tick if no other cmdrs applied for that system, the system is granted to the applicant.
If the system had been applied for by other cmdrs, then a lottery is drawn for the rights to the system. The lottery is just a random number and the highest number is the winner.
If a cmdr has first discovery and others have applied, the discovery cmdr gets, idk, 2 (or 3) extra rolls in the lottery.
If a cmdr has applied for multiple system before the thursday tick, the lottery happens as normal, if the cmdr won more than one lottery they can only choose 1 system from their applications. They have 24 hrs to make a choice, if no choice is made the rights go to the next cmdr who was next in the lottery. (the 24hr parameter can be adjusted so others dont have to wait so long for the winners choice)
If no choices are made within the allotted time, then the rights are forfeited, and it goes to the next cmdr who was second in the lottery.

I'm sure the gotta have it now crowd won't like it, but it would eliminate all concerns of underhandedness. It would also give the first discovered commanders an edge to claim the system they discovered. You know for their effort of actually exploring and discovering a system.

 

[MaximalCrazy]

I just spent 12 hours straight grinding to daisy chain out to a star system I wanted only to have it stolen by someone else who was camping out waiting for my last load at the colonization ship. That felt really bad. It’s like ganking has been added to my solo/pve world, but worse. Getting ganked used to mean you were just losing some credits and a little bit of your time. This was 12 hours, and the affects are permanent. It feels like I had my system stolen from me.

If you’re putting in the work to daisy chain, you should get to make the first claim from that station if you choose. Maybe the architect has to land on the outpost to bring it online before others can land on it so they at the very least have a headstart. If they don’t bring it online, it could be brought online on the next server tick.

I was quick, too. Really quick. I expected others to want that system as well because it actually has a good name instead of something generic and hard to remember like the vast majority of systems. I found someone to help me with the last load so I can be ready to jump to the station when it was complete. I still missed it by seconds. Most of the time, I would imagine that people wouldn’t necessarily have that extra help. If someone is camping out, there’s no way to sell your last load and get to your new outpost in time.

I’m not sure if it’s a bug or an oversight that new stations are immediately available like this, but it’s something that needs to be addressed.

I feel u, same with the project from me and my mates.

 

[Kerttuli9000]

Joining the club. Just got claim sniped. Took me 30 seconds at most from the construction platform to the new station, and whaddya know, some already nabbed the system I was building towards. Zero interest in any sort of bridge building after this one, feels just ty tbh.

Not claiming ownership of the whole space or nice intended stuff, it's free real estate and all that, but having someone just camp your build site and smooch off of your effort is just low, and makes for a pretty bloody bad user experience. One hauls few dozens of kilotons worth of stuff around, and the other one spams docking request, yay, excellent and emergent gameplay.

Some sort of grace period or some such would definitely be nice to grant the architect at least a modicum of chance to reasonably benefit from the work done, otherwise the claim system is ripe for exploit.

 

[gbjbaanb]

Please recognize what that state of affairs is going to look like from the perspective of all the other players: We're going to be hopping around from system to system hoping to stake claims and constantly landing at stations which have their colonization contact (temporarily) disabled. It's going to be a crap shoot every time you try to find a station to make a claim from

That's not true - new players won't be at the edge of space looking for colonisation targets, only old ones. And old ones will know that not all systems have colonisation contacts enabled (like many stations don't have all the other contacts enabled), and ones at the edge of the bubble will sometimes be newly minted and thus not enabled immediately.

Having a time period where all the services and contacts come online makes sense, having it occur instantly doesn't. Perhaps the station shouldn't even allow docking until the architect has arrived for the big opening ceremony - that tape across the entrace needsa big set of scissors to cut!