Changes to the Boosting mechanic for better ship scale balancing

[Madrax573]

I'm taking purely about combat here and a bit of light travel.

Ok so lets think about this. The small ships are supposed to be nippy, agile ships that 'should' be able to run rings around bigger, heavier ships yes?

Well most of the small ships in game can do that to a certain extent. They have higher cruise speeds, better turning etc UNTIL you engage boost.

Then all that goes out the window. After all it's one of the primary reasons the FDL/FAS ships are considered simply the best combat ships right now.
Then add the ability to mod your distro so you can nigh on perma boost simply means that many of the medium combat ships just simply out perform the small combat ship.

So my first suggestion is to remove boosting altogether and give a slight boost to normal speed and agility. This would bring the ship scales back into a better balance point and can be tweaked further to enhance it. Hoever I know that most of the very vocal PvP crowd would just go crying buckets to FDev if that happened.

So suggestion 2

Change the boost so that it becomes a real space cruising mechanic.
You can boost (I'd probably increase the duration a tad as well) But when you do your manoeuvring thrusters get turned off. No turning or slewing at all, just straight line fast movement. Then have a cooldown period to your thrusters so no perma boosting any more.
This way you can 'cruise' in real space to cover decent distances, around starports, rings etc and still use boost as a tactical re-position as such. Maybe if you are skilled and your opponent not so much even as a ram still.

 

[MK Regular]

Your first proposal seems fine to me, but then again, I don't do PvP. On the other hand, your second proposal seems a bit restrictive to me since I like being able to maneuver while boosting. So, I am going to take your 2 proposals, mash them together and give you a third proposal:

Remove the maneuverability bonus while boosting and give a slight buff to maneuverability to all ships.

With this, small ships will still out-maneuver bigger ships, and you can still turn while boosting (just not very well). Boosting would be used in the same way as the second proposal, but ramming would be more of a viable option.

 

[Madrax573]

Your first proposal seems fine to me, but then again, I don't do PvP. On the other hand, your second proposal seems a bit restrictive to me since I like being able to maneuver while boosting. So, I am going to take your 2 proposals, mash them together and give you a third proposal:

Remove the maneuverability bonus while boosting and give a slight buff to maneuverability to all ships.

With this, small ships will still out-maneuver bigger ships, and you can still turn while boosting (just not very well). Boosting would be used in the same way as the second proposal, but ramming would be more of a viable option.

Removing the manoeuvrability bonus during boost would help but I'm not sure it would be enough given the performance of the boost speed. It would just lead to a more joust centric combat than current.

 

[bicarbon8]

I'm not sure I'd agree that the way Boosting works should be changed. I see it as how adding Nitrous to a car can boost performance, but in the ship, it is affecting all thrusters so maneuverability SHOULD improve.

What I WOULD like fixed though is the fact that after boosting, and with flight assist OFF, my ship slows back down to non-boost speeds... what's that about???

 

[Madrax573]

I'm not sure I'd agree that the way Boosting works should be changed. I see it as how adding Nitrous to a car can boost performance, but in the ship, it is affecting all thrusters so maneuverability SHOULD improve.

What I WOULD like fixed though is the fact that after boosting, and with flight assist OFF, my ship slows back down to non-boost speeds... what's that about???

Completely the wrong end of what I'm saying.

I'm against anything that generally increases boost usefulness as the boost mechanic makes a mockery of the ship scales and roles.

Boost IMO should be the cruising mode of real space travel and NOT to be able to give bigger ship better performance than smaller ships.
Yes in theory if you put a big enough thruster system on a heavier ship you'll still be bale to get the same or better performance but you are then not taking into account the overall stresses on spaceframe etc.

And it simply messes with game balance.

 

[varonica]

I'm not sure I'd agree that the way Boosting works should be changed. I see it as how adding Nitrous to a car can boost performance, but in the ship, it is affecting all thrusters so maneuverability SHOULD improve.

What I WOULD like fixed though is the fact that after boosting, and with flight assist OFF, my ship slows back down to non-boost speeds... what's that about???

It's purely combat aligned. A small ship with the fastest boost speed would be would be uncatchable, and probably unbeatable if it didn't slow down from boost with FA off, so to enhance gameplay our ships will slow down from boost with no input from us even though that's complete nonsense in a space environment. In a small ship you could boost away, FA off repair shields, synthesise ammo, repair modules etc, turn around boost back in to combat, rinse repeat. So it's an artificial behaviour designed to enhance air combat in space.

 

[lordpsymon]

I'm not sure I'd agree that the way Boosting works should be changed. I see it as how adding Nitrous to a car can boost performance, but in the ship, it is affecting all thrusters so maneuverability SHOULD improve.

What I WOULD like fixed though is the fact that after boosting, and with flight assist OFF, my ship slows back down to non-boost speeds... what's that about???

This exists because video game.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Boosting is an odd mechanic.

I thought it would be better to have a "press and hold" boost, or afterburner instead.
Your acceleration increases dramatically over time, as does your heat, and fuel consumption.
But your agility goes out the window, and under greater acceleration, you begin to "drift" which requires more work to correct.

Smaller ships would accelerate waaaaaaay faster than larger ships*. But you'd both theoretical cap out at a maximum speed that's stable for P2P instancing. It'd just take longer for a large ship to get there.
Smaller ships would also retain more agility during boost (but not much), and be able to slow down much faster.

*Outfitting depending of course.

A similar system could be applied to supercruise too, so we get zip about on fire trying to reach distant stars. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[bicarbon8]

It's purely combat aligned. A small ship with the fastest boost speed would be would be uncatchable, and probably unbeatable if it didn't slow down from boost with FA off, so to enhance gameplay our ships will slow down from boost with no input from us even though that's complete nonsense in a space environment. In a small ship you could boost away, FA off repair shields, synthesise ammo, repair modules etc, turn around boost back in to combat, rinse repeat. So it's an artificial behaviour designed to enhance air combat in space.

in my Viper Mk III I can still do this even WITH the artificial slowdown mechanic in the game so I'm not sure this is working as you say it is intended.

Here's a link to my ship... 100% survivable in a High Intensity Conflict Zone doing strafing runs and flying away to let shields recover in the event that anyone manages to hit me along the way: https://eddp.co/u/TTxFjMmi

 

[Aashenfox]

I agree, increasing your speed should not at the same time increase your pitch rate and the response of all thrusters on the ship.

Boost should give an instant hard SHOVE in the direction that is longitudinal with the ship (i.e. always straight forwards depending on ship orientation), no boost to pitch, yaw or roll, or lat or vert thrust, in fact, those things should be less responsive when boosting. In other words, when boosting, you should have reduced thruster control (cos all the power is being spat out the back).

I also support making it a mechanic that involves risk. Boosting should generate MASSIVE engine heat (that dissipates quickly so as not to have too much imapct on hot weapon loadouts), yes you should be able to boost as much as you want if you have the pip skill and disti to do it, but if you perma boost, you'll really have to watch temps and what weapons you're firing.

 

[Raino]

Boosting should generate MASSIVE engine heat, yes you should be able to boost as much as you want if you have the pip skill and disti to do it, but if you perma boost, you'll be melting your ship in short order.

But but - people are doing that already!

did read about just yesterday ...

 

[Aashenfox]

But but - people are doing that already!

did read about just yesterday ...

Sorrry mate, I don't follow, did I miss another topic while ranting about CnP the last few days?

 

[Aashenfox]

Oh and by the way, wait til you see how 147% dirty drives are gonna affect this on some ships.

 

[Raino]

Sorrry mate, I don't follow, did I miss another topic while ranting about CnP the last few days?

complaints about ship heat, nothin special to miss

and yes , thought about sending you a "hug the fox and calm" a couple times

 

[Aashenfox]

complaints about ship heat, nothin special to miss

and yes , thought about sending you a "hug the fox and calm" a couple times

Gotcha, yeh, the infernal requirement for balance in a game where players' skills aren't balanced. To be honest, as I say, I would increase boost heat, and I'd probably reduce weapon heat. Not because I think it's unreasonable as a mechanic, just to make the fights a bit shorter. Because most ships can stack more HRPs or shield boosters than they can weapons, engineers has caused the balance of power to shift heavily in favour of defence, so some buffs to dps are needed. But that is another thread.

 

[Giyari]

If you've ever boosted while in a turn you'll understand that boosting does increase the power of your thrusters, your pitch and yaw do increase noticeably. The problem is a lot of people, admittedly including myself, boost when they don't need to, they boost when an increase in normal thrust would be just as effective and more controllable.

 

[Madrax573]

Boosting is an odd mechanic.

I thought it would be better to have a "press and hold" boost, or afterburner instead.
Your acceleration increases dramatically over time, as does your heat, and fuel consumption.
But your agility goes out the window, and under greater acceleration, you begin to "drift" which requires more work to correct.

Smaller ships would accelerate waaaaaaay faster than larger ships*. But you'd both theoretical cap out at a maximum speed that's stable for P2P instancing. It'd just take longer for a large ship to get there.
Smaller ships would also retain more agility during boost (but not much), and be able to slow down much faster.

*Outfitting depending of course.

A similar system could be applied to supercruise too, so we get zip about on fire trying to reach distant stars. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

I agree, increasing your speed should not at the same time increase your pitch rate and the response of all thrusters on the ship.

Boost should give an instant hard SHOVE in the direction that is longitudinal with the ship (i.e. always straight forwards depending on ship orientation), no boost to pitch, yaw or roll, or lat or vert thrust, in fact, those things should be less responsive when boosting. In other words, when boosting, you should have reduced thruster control (cos all the power is being spat out the back).

I also support making it a mechanic that involves risk. Boosting should generate MASSIVE engine heat (that dissipates quickly so as not to have too much imapct on hot weapon loadouts), yes you should be able to boost as much as you want if you have the pip skill and disti to do it, but if you perma boost, you'll really have to watch temps and what weapons you're firing.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it!

 

[bicarbon8]

I agree, increasing your speed should not at the same time increase your pitch rate and the response of all thrusters on the ship.

Boost should give an instant hard SHOVE in the direction that is longitudinal with the ship (i.e. always straight forwards depending on ship orientation), no boost to pitch, yaw or roll, or lat or vert thrust, in fact, those things should be less responsive when boosting. In other words, when boosting, you should have reduced thruster control (cos all the power is being spat out the back).

I also support making it a mechanic that involves risk. Boosting should generate MASSIVE engine heat (that dissipates quickly so as not to have too much imapct on hot weapon loadouts), yes you should be able to boost as much as you want if you have the pip skill and disti to do it, but if you perma boost, you'll really have to watch temps and what weapons you're firing.

I agree that boosting should significantly increase heat buildup. right now it only nominally does so (you can see this by boosting while engaging the FSD), but not that it shouldn't affect pitch, yaw and roll. Boost affects all thrusters so I would expect these to improve based on a boost.

Would be nice if the boost worked as CMDR_Cosmicspacehead said whereby you can keep it engaged as long as you want, but the heat buildup will damage your modules (thrusters primarily) meaning you'd be more likely to have your thrusters experience module malfunction (which could leave you dead in the water).

 

[Aashenfox]

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it!

Don't lose heart. The funny thing is that you'll find that a lot of the people who shoot this idea down are also the ones complaining about meta God ships, the FAS and FDL having such huge combat ability, and cry for a nerf, then they don't support the idea that nerfs them exactly where they need to be nerfed. You can take a horse to water, as they say...

I agree that boosting should significantly increase heat buildup. right now it only nominally does so (you can see this by boosting while engaging the FSD), but not that it shouldn't affect pitch, yaw and roll. Boost affects all thrusters so I would expect these to improve based on a boost.

Would be nice if the boost worked as CMDR_Cosmicspacehead said whereby you can keep it engaged as long as you want, but the heat buildup will damage your modules (thrusters primarily) meaning you'd be more likely to have your thrusters experience module malfunction (which could leave you dead in the water).

Yeh, I can support that too. I like the idea of holding down as long as you dare...

Although...one issue I do see with that, is that it is already rather too easy to run away from combat, and this would make it easier still. May need to consider a balancing mechanic.

 

[bicarbon8]

Although...one issue I do see with that, is that it is already rather too easy to run away from combat, and this would make it easier still. May need to consider a balancing mechanic.

easy solution to anyone who is running away from combat is that the other ship have at least one Long Range modded weapon with a Thermal Shock effect and target their Thrusters. The commander trying to flee would be almost instantly cooked.