Clipper vs Python maneuverability and level of fun in combat...?

n13L5 · Jun 11, 2015

thanks more!

some unsorted comments:

- I considered an FDL, but I already find my Vulture is hard to move around (partly because my fitting relies on installing an E rated FSD once I arrive, so I always need a Cobra to hold the A rated FSD until I decide to move the Vulture some place else. The short jump range just seems a needless extra pain FD saddles you with. Also never heard anyone talk about the maneuverability of that ship. Might be the best one of the 3 for just combat...?

- Being unable to land on outposts in the Clipper is a tad annoying, given that the size is not really that large, it just happens to gain its large area from being a trimaran. Gun placements seem needlessly far apart.

- One thing I don't need to do is trade with my combat ship, I prefer trading in my Anaconda, which I can't afford to fit for battle anyway, not that I feel like fighting with turrets anyway...

- I think I will try an FDL fitting in ED shipyard and see. I wish the FDL's paint job wasn't red and white. British racing green would have been nice. Killing stuff isn't enough. Gotta look good doing it.

- @ Thoemse - If your shield generator's optimal mass matches your ship's full weight, you don't need a larger shield. Its been proven in beta with fairly extensive tests, that an over sized shield doesn't do much that a right sized shield would also do. So, depending on your Clipper's mass, A rating your tier 6 shield may do a LOT more for you than getting a B rated Tier 7 shield. But if your Clipper only fits into the tier 6 shield's maximum mass, but isn't near optimal mass, then a B rated Tier 7 would be stronger.

Thrusters seem to be similar, as I tested for the best thruster upgrade on my Anaconda this morning:

5A: 182 / 232 m/s boost
6D: 189 / 252 m/s boost
6A: 209 / 278 m/s boost
7D: 191 / 254 m/s boost
7A: 211 / 280 m/s boost

As you can see, each size 7 variant doesn't do much beyond the matching size 6 variant, because the Conda is already within optimal mass rating for the 6D. Using the 7D anyway would cut jump range by 0.88 LY because of its extra weight.

The 5A clearly performs worse than the 6A, because the conda is closer to its maximum mass and not near the optimum mass for it. A 5D can't even be installed.

micky1984 · Jun 11, 2015

n13L5 said:
I'm not sure which one I should set up for combat (PvE)
I'm not just looking for pure combat strength, but for what's more fun to fly for this purpose.

- Is there any reason to fly a (combat) Clipper if you can afford a Python?

im sure that proffesional combat pilots judge there aircraft on level of fun ? NOT the only judgement should be on combat effectiveness

Poseidal · Jun 11, 2015

Speed is part of combat effectiveness.

n13L5 · Jun 11, 2015

micky1984 said:
im sure that proffesional combat pilots judge there aircraft on level of fun ? NOT the only judgement should be on combat effectiveness

If I was a professional pilot, I'd probably fly whatever the airforce hands me the keys for.

But the only thing I actually know how to fly is a little Cessna 172... and even that I hate landing in if there's strong cross winds.

n13L5 · Jun 11, 2015

Poseidal said:
Speed is part of combat effectiveness.

Indeed.

Even though my Vulture had so far been fine with D rated thrusters, and even those I mostly kept at half throttle. I guess 1.3 changes that, although I didn't really notice any difference in Combat, except that the "high intensity" RES was extremely slow with spawns.

Axelsson · Jun 11, 2015

I'm having a hard time to decide for one PvE ships myself. Right now I stripped the Clipper (for the 10% penalty on selling modules, that later was not introduced) so I'm only flying the Python. But it really makes me miss the speed and agility of the Clipper. Will need to set it up again. The same with FDL and Vulture actually, but in my view those are not in the same league for PvE as Python/Clipper. Still fun to change things up a bit.

n13L5 · Jun 12, 2015

Axelsson said:
I'm having a hard time to decide for one PvE ships myself. Right now I stripped the Clipper (for the 10% penalty on selling modules, that later was not introduced) so I'm only flying the Python. But it really makes me miss the speed and agility of the Clipper. Will need to set it up again. The same with FDL and Vulture actually, but in my view those are not in the same league for PvE as Python/Clipper. Still fun to change things up a bit.

I'm never dropping the Vulture... Easier to just grind an extra 15 million than trade it in and have to get it again, take it to the shop to install custom speakers and leather seats etc...

People will crucify me, but I don't like the exterior design of the Clipper. That business-jet-turned-space-trimaran thing just doesn't work for me. I don't like the detailing. Theoretically, it *could* work for me, if it was more like the X-men's plane.
The cockpit window is very nice, true, instrument pods are a little bulgy but very functional without ugly distractions behind them like in Python and some other ships. But the best Cockpits to me, are found in Vulture and FDL.

I don't like the Clipper's hard point placement so far apart either. The hard points themselves are alright and speed and agility really good for that size ship.
Don't think the Python is much worse in agility, but is certainly much worse in speed.

I find it extremely difficult to decide, because no ship even combines most of the things I care about.

- I don't like the FDL hard points, wish it had 3 large instead of 1 huge and 2 med, and its jump range is atrocious

- Clipper hard points are good, but too far appart, you'd need one fixed and one gimballed to not be missing with one of them all the time. And for the purchase price, its super expensive to fit that thing.

- Python hard points are good, 3 large, 2 med, and its shields are still decent after 2 heavy nerfs. (goes to show you how over the top it was at first) Since I keep a D rated thruster most of the time around half throttle, I seem to not miss speed, except when I come from a distance and have to get close enough for KWS.

Moahunter · Jul 24, 2015

I have an anaconda trader (much nicer than class 9), and a Clipper combat ship. I tried Fer De Lance, but didn't like the medium hard points, Python is just too slow for how I like to fight (run and gun, in and out). The shields are weak on clipper but all ships have pros and cons, I am just using a D7 with shield cell banks, and military composite, which is great for ramming. I like large gimballed beams burn off shields and then get in close and kill off big ships with frags. I don't worry about chaff PVP, I just don't lock on, use gimbals like fixed, and go in hard for a ram / frag. Can always fly away with the almost limitless boost and high speed of the clipper.

I don't think there is a best ship, or a best fit out, and that's a good thing, play what works for you, this is what is working for me (might upgrade shield eventually):

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=703,4zh4zh7ck7ck0_g0_g0_g0_g,319Y9Y7_8S9Y7_6k,7WK16y4_w9tu7fE7fE0nE2UI

SongMinKi · Jul 24, 2015

the clipper excels at the Brave Sir Robin maneuver and will only die if jumped by like a wing of 7 who dropped the clipper within 5 seconds. otherwise you will only die if you choose to fight to the death. Only a boost spamming cobra can keep up with a clipper, but even then not indefinitely as a clipper's boost lasts slightly longer and can boost more often with 3 pips to engines.

Stressfest · Jul 24, 2015

For myself I enjoy flying the clipper a lot and is my go to vessel for trading. I have my vulture for pew pew and generally flying about being a bad guy and I have my trusty wire frame cobra for when I feel nostalgia kick in. I never bonded with either the Python or FDL.. I see the Python as a great all rounder but the lack of agility worried me, especially in a combat role. A poor mans Anaconda? It really felt like the son of space cow.. I infact nick named her the cow-pat, big brown lumbering pile of..

h347h · Jul 24, 2015

The Python is often considered "the best ship in the game" by more than a few circles. It is almost like the perfect balance between fire power, shields, and maneuvering. I have not flown any of the Imp ships as their designs have not been to my taste. More of a Core Dynamics guy myself, but I can hands down say that the Python is a really good ship in every facet of being a ship. Once you get it fully kitted of course, don't jump into a D kit one and expect to rock at PvP.

SongMinKi · Jul 24, 2015

h347h said:
The Python is often considered "the best ship in the game" by more than a few circles. It is almost like the perfect balance between fire power, shields, and maneuvering. I have not flown any of the Imp ships as their designs have not been to my taste. More of a Core Dynamics guy myself, but I can hands down say that the Python is a really good ship in every facet of being a ship. Once you get it fully kitted of course, don't jump into a D kit one and expect to rock at PvP.

indeed, in my A rated anaconda i can beat any single python player but only by way of attrition since an anaconda can carry more SCBs than a python. If we carried the same amount of SCBs i would not be optimistic about my average winning chance against a python.

Quineloe · Jul 24, 2015

So why did Derthek decide to remove all his posts form this thread?

Agony_Aunt · Jul 24, 2015

I think the Python is technically better, but i prefer the Clipper for the speed and agility. I like to control an engagement, not be controlled.

Derthek · Jul 24, 2015

Quineloe said:
So why did Derthek decide to remove all his posts form this thread?

Redacted

Morbad · Jul 24, 2015

For raw combat (which usually implies PvP in my case) utility, my preferred ships are, the FDL, the Clipper, then the Vulture, in that order. Smaller ships tend to be underpowered for PvP outside of wings or niche circumstances, while the Python and Anaconda are just too slow for the sort of action I typically participate in; they will usually spend more time trying to catch up to the fight than actually fighting.

The Clipper can pretty tough, and when equipped properly, nearly the equal of Python in this regard. Base shields are on the weak side, but it's extremely fast, and can carry a significant SCB load. Hardpoint placement makes it vulnerable to chaff, but at least one large and probably a medium hardpoint can be reliably lined up even with no target selected, or weapons in fixed fire mode.

People seem to undervalue speed in a fight, something I've always found puzzling. It's a hugely important tactical consideration, for both defense and offense. This isn't to say there's no place for the slower ships, but when comparing ships, any speed discrepancy needs to be considered. A combat Clipper can maintain almost 100m/s higher velocity than a combat Python...that is nothing to sneeze at.

betc · Jul 24, 2015

following this discussion with interest;
this is my clipper build http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=703,4zh5TP7u57u50_q0_g0_g0_g,2-9Y9Y7_8c9Y7_6k,7Vs52M7fE7fE7fE7fE7dg7dg
by ed-shipyard; shield is 538 vs 726, SCBs 6 v 8 (much bigger), weap 1 extra beam, maybe 2? (does python overheat with 3L beam?)

the thing that gets me with the python is the speed, is it really that much better? i am very tempted to buy one and try it all out, im just not that sold. hitting 440 on boost in the clipper is very nice for getting out of trouble which in high intensity conflict zones happens a bit. no PvP here.

Morbad · Jul 24, 2015

betc said:
following this discussion with interest;
this is my clipper build http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=703,4zh5TP7u57u50_q0_g0_g0_g,2-9Y9Y7_8c9Y7_6k,7Vs52M7fE7fE7fE7fE7dg7dg
by ed-shipyard; shield is 538 vs 726, SCBs 6 v 8 (much bigger), weap 1 extra beam, maybe 2? (does python overheat with 3L beam?)

the thing that gets me with the python is the speed, is it really that much better? i am very tempted to buy one and try it all out, im just not that sold. hitting 440 on boost in the clipper is very nice for getting out of trouble which in high intensity conflict zones happens a bit. no PvP here.

The Python can absorb and dish out more damage than the Clipper and there is really no way around that fact.

However, the Clipper can deal more than enough damage to efficiently destroy any AI vessel. Also, it cannot be swarmed because only a handful of ships can keep up with it, and they tend to lack the necessary firepower. You can swoop in, destroy escorts, sort AI by speed as they give chase, wipe out the small quick ships before the slower ones reach you, then concentrate on the now exposed heavy vessels.

A Python has real difficulty outrunning anything other than an Anaconda. Much of that extra shield strength and SCBs will simply go to surviving swarming attacks if you really get in the thick of things enough to bring all it's firepower to bear.

Even a Python can suffer power/cooling issues with three large beams. You can certainly make them work, but you will need to know when to shoot and when not to.

askavir · Jul 24, 2015

I've had both and I definitively prefer the Clipper for Combat. It is still my main ship.

The Python packs a bigger punch due to one extra large hardpoint. Also the Python shields are quite better. The Python is very good for PvE, due to its effectiveness at the "park on the battlefield and tank damage while pressing fire untill enemies pop" fighting strategy. But the Python is slow, sluggish, and quite painful to fly (first Python I had i upgraded from the Clipper and was shocked at its slothness). It has a 6 in-game manouverability rating, but it feels like flying a very well armed and shielded Lakon Type-6.

The Clipper has less raw bite than the Python, and its shields are lackluster. On the other hand, has more armor. And its absolutely fantastic to fly, for such a large ship. Even with stock thrusters, its super-fast, has very good manouverability, its pitch and roll are great, you can fly it like a very big, heavy armed version of a Cobra. You can fly the Clipper into combat, and fly it like a fighter ship. If you're a decent pilot, you will get in a Python's tail easily and it will never be able to turn and shoot you. But you just cannot fight "the lazy way" with the Clipper, because of its weak shields.

I will pick Clipper over Python for fighting any day.

For any other activity, the Python is the better choice. It can just do absolutely anything without downsides.

Jesse Blue · Jul 24, 2015

One has speed and agility, the other better shields and an extra large weapon.
.
Pick the one who favors your playstyle.
.
I personally prefer the Clipper. Speed & agility let me dictate the fight on my terms, including when the fight ends, and the extra large hardpoint on the Python doesn't really add much extra firepower in frentic dogfights, due to its belly placement. Also, while the Python is pretty handsome, the Clipper looks gorgeous.