Cloaking Mechanic

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I don't think any amount of improvement would change my opinion.

But let me make my case:
1) I think cloaking devices are just yet another scifi trope, and don't fit my interpretation of the Elite galaxy.
2) Extremely hard to balance game play, which is probably also why stealth is so neglected in Elite.

On the lore side, that’s fair enough. Though personally I think that a game set so far in the future, and that includes hyperspace travel, can easily accomodate cloaking devices, particularly since there is actually successful experimentation going on right now for “cloaking” or refracting light to have some of it pass through an object, albeit on a basic and limited scale so far.

As for balance, that’s being considered and worked on in this proposal. Any input on that would be great.

 

[WobblyBob]

Maybe they should first make silent running actually do something. Dropping your signal or going into silent running does nothing hide you from an NPC that's already fighting you. I've often tried to drop into silent running while behind asteroids to try to get the jump on them from a different angle but apparently even at 2.5km, NPCs can still see you through rocks. Not cool...

 

[Firebeard]

I was going to start a suggestion, after having spent ages collecting stuff for Ram Tah's guardian missions but thought it would link nicely to this.

How about implementing something like a "guardian cloaking device" which was only obtainable from an "epic mission" such as Ram Tah sends you on? The idea for the module is good - but this would maybe limit who obtained it.

Even add some follow on stuff to investigate the culture, collect a set of parts etc and then finally take it to someone else to put together then you could buy it from a tech broker.

 

[MK Regular]

I think this idea seems fairly reasonable. There are a few disagreements as to how exactly the cloaking device would work (notably with regards to shields), although whatever potential solution is eventually agreed upon could easily be explained in-universe.

One thing that came to mind while reading through this thread was the Survivability Onion. Each layer of the onion is currently represented in ED (including the outermost layer "Don't be there in the first place" which isn't shown in the link) as follows:

• Don't be there in the first place - Solo/PG/Open gamemodes (I'm not going to talk about this, but I must specify that it is separate from the "Don't be seen" layer)
• Don't be seen - Silent running, heat management
• Don't be hit - Ship maneuvering, Point defences, ECMs, Chaff, Gimballed/Turreted weapons, etc...
• Don't be penetrated damaged: Shields and related modules
• Don't be killed: Armour, HRPs, MRPs

Of all of these measures, the single most developed layer of the onion is "Don't be hit" with multiple outfitting options and specialized counters introduced through engineering (emmisive, dispersal, dazzle, drag munitions, TLB, etc...), followed by "Don't be damaged" with multiple outfitting options and several hard counters with engineering (reverb, feedback, and phasing) each of which require specialized weapons or builds. By comparison the final layer of the onion is relatively tame, the defensive aspect is a choice between hull and module protection while the offensive aspect is a choice between hull and internal/external module damage.

Now, compare each of these layers (ignore the "Don't be there in the first place" layer, FDev has said that they will never change it and I don't want to turn this into an argument about modes) to the "Don't be seen" layer. The other layers feature multiple choices on both the attacking and defending ends of the engagement, while "Don't be seen" consists of many outfitting choices on the end of the player trying not to be seen while the other end consists of a few learned skills and the simple non-choice of 'toggle night vision on'. Effectively, the "Don't be seen" layer of the survivability onion is so one-sided that it may as well not exist in ED, which is a shame since it has the potential to offer a large amount of gameplay.

As for the concerns behind stealth ramming, my thoughts are that a ship should not be able to use shields while cloaked, but deactivating the cloak SHOULD raise the shields to the level they were at when the cloak was activated. The sole exception to this rule would be when the cloak is deactivated due to incoming damage, meaning that:
1) The cloaked ship would not be able to ram a target while cloaked without taking a large amount of damage
2) Ramming a ship while cloaked insures that you are more venerable to incoming fire when your cloak drops
3) Damaging a cloaked ship (in any way) leaves the ship venerable to additional damage
4) If there is a delay between the cloak dropping and the shield returning (probably around 5 seconds), there is a brief window of opportunity for return fire to prevent the recently decloaked ship's shield from coming back online leaving the ship more venerable to incoming fire
5) If there is a delay between the cloak dropping and the shield returning, a stealth rammer cannot deactivate the cloak a fraction of a second before impact to avoid taking a large amount of damage and being venerable to return fire

 

[Exeider]

I don't really understand what the point of this cloaking device is to be honest. At the moment you're suggesting that you can still be seen on Radar but not targeted, which seems to me to make it worse than Silent Running is currently. If you can be seen on radar then someone can home in on you easily, and get close enough to attack you without any worries. Needing to target someone if you're using fixed weapons isn't that big a deal. With Silent Running you are very hard to make out until they're right up close to you at which point they can target you, as long as they stay within range.

I do like the way you've put your proposal, but I'm afraid that cloaking in Elite holds as much interest for me as it ever has done. I don't believe that it has a place in the game. We have Silent Running, which is so easy to use now it's ridiculously overpowered. And Cloaking Devices would stop people from putting in the effort to make cold running ships. I have a Krait Mk. II that I have lightly engineered and runs at 12% heat generation when flying at full speed



No.

I was under the impression that the colder you run, regardless of whether you're in silent running or not, but the colder your ship is, the fuzzier your radar picture is, you drop off sensors sooner.

So smugglers and people who run cold builds essentially "disappear" from radar/targeting already.

So if anything, you should work on finding a way to perma frost your ship and be able to keep silent running on either indefinately or a very very long time

 

[Glock_N_Load]

I always wanted to be able to direct shields like in TIE FIGHTER or X-wing.

 

[Ozric]

I was under the impression that the colder you run, regardless of whether you're in silent running or not, but the colder your ship is, the fuzzier your radar picture is, you drop off sensors sooner.

So smugglers and people who run cold builds essentially "disappear" from radar/targeting already.

So if anything, you should work on finding a way to perma frost your ship and be able to keep silent running on either indefinately or a very very long time

Yep that is true. Ships do also have a rating for the likelyhood of them being scanned (I can't remember what the name is) and the Krait Mk II has a lower chance, which is why it makes a good base for a smuggling ship. As far as I'm aware Frontier have never released the actual list though.

Going to the effort of making a cold running ship is much more rewarding that just using Silent Running, mainly because you don't have to worry about panicking. At 12% heat generation I can probably get within 500m of a ship before it can target me. I won't resolve on the radar further than that and much closer they can target you regardless of if you're cold or in Silent Running. If your ship is that cold then Silent Running isn't really necessary, not for smuggling at least.

 

[Exeider]

Yep that is true. Ships do also have a rating for the likelyhood of them being scanned (I can't remember what the name is) and the Krait Mk II has a lower chance, which is why it makes a good base for a smuggling ship. As far as I'm aware Frontier have never released the actual list though.

Going to the effort of making a cold running ship is much more rewarding that just using Silent Running, mainly because you don't have to worry about panicking. At 12% heat generation I can probably get within 500m of a ship before it can target me. I won't resolve on the radar further than that and much closer they can target you regardless of if you're cold or in Silent Running. If your ship is that cold then Silent Running isn't really necessary, not for smuggling at least.

That's what I thought. Ok good to get some confirmation. Thank you.

 

[Dragsham]

Necroed this post because its awesome and needs debating.
Also fdevs will read it!
So...YES let's have a normal space (not sc) cloaking device/module for ships. Haulers interdicted can flick a switch and their off the menu!
Look I dunno I'm just a wacko. But gankers would grow beards between kills perhaps grow a pair and go do some work for a living..!
So can we have a cloaking device please.?
Along with a grappling hook and more loot!

 

[varonica]

Just read all that thread thinking it was something new, and you've necroed it from 3 years back? Please don't do that, if it was worth discussing it would still be ongoing, if FDEV was going to implement it they already would have, all you've done, basically, is bump a 3 year old thread, not cool!

 

[Dragsham]

Well I wholeheartedly disagree. The whole point of the necro post IS to bump it forth so why isn't that cool?
It's a very good subject. Leastways l think so. Course your entitled to your opinion as much as iam

 

[Ozric]

It's as worth it now as it was then.

Not at all.

 

[varonica]

Well I wholeheartedly disagree. The whole point of the necro post IS to bump it forth so why isn't that cool?
It's a very good subject. Leastways l think so. Course your entitled to your opinion as much as iam

It isn't cool because posting just to bump an old thread is against the forum rules you agreed to when you joined.

 

[Dragsham]

Oh....agimw I had no idea!

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Well I wholeheartedly disagree. The whole point of the necro post IS to bump it forth so why isn't that cool?
It's a very good subject. Leastways l think so. Course your entitled to your opinion as much as iam

Careful there Dragsham. You've run afoul of the volunteer forum police with your reckless behaviour, which has endangered all forumites, and set in motion events that may eventually lead to a cataclysm. Either that or people interested in a topic can harmlessly discuss it, be it old or new, but what would I know...

 

[varonica]

Careful there Dragsham. You've run afoul of the volunteer forum police with your reckless behaviour, which has endangered all forumites, and set in motion events that may eventually lead to a cataclysm. Either that or people interested in a topic can harmlessly discuss it, be it old or new, but what would I know...

They can discuss it any time they want, but that was just bump with no discussion involved at all, sort of like your post, a bump with no discussion of the subject. No one wants to discuss it or they would be doing so when it was raised to the top of the forum, so you see posts that no-one wants to discuss sink to the bottom of the forum where threads die a deserved death, until some bumper comes along and tries to resurrect them, and still no-one wants to discuss it, not even you, amazing that!

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

They can discuss it any time they want, but that was just bump with no discussion involved at all, sort of like your post, a bump with no discussion of the subject. No one wants to discuss it or they would be doing so when it was raised to the top of the forum, so you see posts that no-one wants to discuss sink to the bottom of the forum where threads die a deserved death, until some bumper comes along and tries to resurrect them, and still no-one wants to discuss it, not even you, amazing that!

Dragsham definitely did discuss the topic, speaking of perceived advantages and adding their voice to the request/suggestion. Perhaps you dislike either the phrasing, brevity, or the opinion itself, but that doesn't authorise you to decree what constitutes a discussion, and on that basis to forbid that category of comment within the thread. I've said what I wanted to about the cloaking mechanic, and don't now have anything to add, which does not preclude a contribution at some future point.

You can couch the opinion in terms of death and resurrection, but more plainly, it's a topic that was discussed some time ago, and that someone felt like discussing more recently. If there's is the only interest, it will once again quickly move down the list and disappear, without your having to police it, and indeed all the more quickly if you don't.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I'm not sure why people are so quick to rule out Super Cruise Cloaking. You just have to make interesting rules.

• Doesn't make you completely invisible.
• Does make your SC light dimmer and others have to be closer to see it (distance determined by class)
• If you spot the SC light, it can still be targeted even if not on radar.
• Doesn't show up on radar unless you're a specific distance from cloaked ship (determined by class, speed and nearby gravity).
• Break interdiction by exceeding half the normal bar.
• Cannot be used at the same time as shield. So if interdicted you have no shields.
• If successfully interdicted cloaking is off.
• If submitting to interdiction cloaking is disrupted for 10 seconds
• Higher Throttle lessens cloaking effect, raises ship's heat. (the slower you go, the better cloaked you are.)
• Launching heat sink disrupts cloaking effect for 5 seconds.

Outside of supercruise:

• Refracting effect around ship.
• Can't be targeted or scanned unless you're a specific distance (determined by class).
• Hides your heat signature but higher throttle heats up ship.
• Launching heat sink disrupts cloaking effect for 5 seconds.
• Charging frameshift drive takes longer and disrupts cloaking.

Alternatively, I'd prefer a manifest/passenger spoofer that doesn't show your actual cargo.
Or Smuggler holds with less capacity but don't show up on scans. Similar thing for passenger cabins. They hide criminals with an X% chance of being scanned correctly anyway.

Edit: Well, darn, didn't even notice how old the thread was!

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I'm not sure why people are so quick to rule out Super Cruise Cloaking. You just have to make interesting rules.

• Doesn't make you completely invisible.
• Does make your SC light dimmer and others have to be closer to see it (distance determined by class)
• If you spot the SC light, it can still be targeted even if not on radar.
• Doesn't show up on radar unless you're a specific distance from cloaked ship (determined by class, speed and nearby gravity).
• Break interdiction by exceeding half the normal bar.
• Cannot be used at the same time as shield. So if interdicted you have no shields.
• If successfully interdicted cloaking is off.
• If submitting to interdiction cloaking is disrupted for 10 seconds
• Higher Throttle lessens cloaking effect, raises ship's heat. (the slower you go, the better cloaked you are.)
• Launching heat sink disrupts cloaking effect for 5 seconds.

Outside of supercruise:

• Refracting effect around ship.
• Can't be targeted or scanned unless you're a specific distance (determined by class).
• Hides your heat signature but higher throttle heats up ship.
• Launching heat sink disrupts cloaking effect for 5 seconds.
• Charging frameshift drive takes longer and disrupts cloaking.

Alternatively, I'd prefer a manifest/passenger spoofer that doesn't show your actual cargo.
Or Smuggler holds with less capacity but don't show up on scans. Similar thing for passenger cabins. They hide criminals with an X% chance of being scanned correctly anyway.

Edit: Well, darn, didn't even notice how old the thread was!

Interesting limitations. Basically just creating more of a challenge for would-be interdictors rather than making it impossible. But I would think (or like) that if having higher heat due to higher throttle would reduce the cloaking effect, then activating a heat sink should improve it. I wouldn't mind that implementation, but also still wouldn't mind if cloaking didn't work in Super Cruise at all, as mostly I was thinking about smuggling, but your idea for undetectable low capacity smuggler holds or passenger cabins would be a simpler way to address it.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Interesting limitations. Basically just creating more of a challenge for would-be interdictors rather than making it impossible. But I would think (or like) that if having higher heat due to higher throttle would reduce the cloaking effect, then activating a heat sink should improve it. I wouldn't mind that implementation, but also still wouldn't mind if cloaking didn't work in Super Cruise at all, as mostly I was thinking about smuggling, but your idea for undetectable low capacity smuggler holds or passenger cabins would be a simpler way to address it.

I like the cloak for pirate evasion. Lower tech stuff can be done for smuggling.
I wanted heat sinks to mess up cloaking cause a) you're firing a heated brick from your ship, and b) I hate heat sinks and think heat sink spamming is a cheesy mechanic. If you're gonna utilize cloaking, build a colder ship.

The SC part of my previous post could just be a Supercruise emissions scrambler or something.