Cold Steath

[Felix Bonding]

(Srry for the delay. I'm at work)

What this guy said. in fact I read it twice in awe of it.

However if Silent Running works just like in Brumster's Test Video, it doesn't matter what your heat level is, you will always be a vague target. But if it works like YinYin previously posted and your heat radiated does in fact have a factor in this currently, you should be completely invisible with closed vents below the 10% internal heat threshold. I still haven't received a confirmation if it works like that but was anticipating some form of evidence. Would be a cool take on stealth. Even so, I believe it's an unstable form an thus decided to overlook it anyways, despite my anticipation. Still, If anyone wants to make a vid or test with a buddy to that effect it would be much appreciated.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I wanna apologize for the confusion around this topic. It can be quite difficult to articulate all the little details revolving around this mechanic. This is why I also linked Brumster's vid to help with identifying what I'm talking about. Thank you all for continuing to stick through this topic with an open mind.

 

[Marra Morgan]

If you're interested in stealth, have a look at the posts and video by Na'Qan on this page:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=159841&page=4

It's good stuff

 

[goemon]

To add, your point on the 3 pilot thing was mute.

now, you didn't get my point ;-) with the model working like it does that situation "three pilots - each one doesn't see one of the others" is easily tracked as a bug/instancing problem. with your model of stealth, this wouldn't be easily tracked. as long as we have quite often the point, that people don't see each other due to technical bugs, i guess, it's a good thing we don't have stealth - from a game-dev perspective.

than, of course, your wish would need to work with others mechanics. we do see asteroids in our scanners, which don't produce any heat, ifwe are close. we do see canisters as fuzzy contacts 5 km away, which don't produce heat. why shouldn't a ship scanner not be able to show a ship, but a canister (or an asteroid)?

 

[YinYin]

So ... what you would really need is being able to turn off the power plant as well (no more heat generation at all - possibly allows reaching 0%).

I hear with the new damage mechanics to it you will be able to repair it in the future - perhaps you can also turn it off ...?

edit: ^^^ I have a feeling certain things are also related to size (not only distance) - it's just a gut feeling but I sometimes get the impression larger ships resolve earlier than smaller ones (most notable when encountering mixed wings - you already see the small ones visually but the scanner doesn't show them yet) - so asteroids are simply too large and reflecting enough light to not be detected - canisters on the other hand ... well some of them contain tech to preserve what they carry so perhaps they do have a considerable heat signature.

 

[goemon]

I have a feeling certain things are also related to size (not only distance)

this was confirmed by devs concerning auto-resolve distance at least (bigger ship - earlier autoresolve). but yes - i can see anacondas earlier than smaller ships. i'm not sure whether the reason is heat (their powerplants using more power - generating more heat total? this could be tested by running smaller and larger ships with 2A powerplants), or size?

 

[Drink!]

The issues is that Cold Stealth and Silent running should work the same.

Cold Stealth, your temp drops until is undetectable by another ship.
Silent running, you stop venting heat and become undetectable by another ship.

The way it actually work is both just makes you harder to detect. For game balancing, this is ok.

 

[Felix Bonding]

now, you didn't get my point ;-) with the model working like it does that situation "three pilots - each one doesn't see one of the others" is easily tracked as a bug/instancing problem. with your model of stealth, this wouldn't be easily tracked. as long as we have quite often the point, that people don't see each other due to technical bugs, i guess, it's a good thing we don't have stealth - from a game-dev perspective.

ahh I understand you now. This is a very hard topic to convey and is easily misinterpreted from both sides of the coin.

than, of course, your wish would need to work with others mechanics. we do see asteroids in our scanners, which don't produce any heat, ifwe are close. we do see canisters as fuzzy contacts 5 km away, which don't produce heat. why shouldn't a ship scanner not be able to show a ship, but a canister (or an asteroid)?

I am very glad you mentioned this. I have wondered why something that doesn't generate heat shows up on the sensors... I would say mass is also a factor in the sensor's parameters but then why can I detect a small canister far away but need to be up close to a huge asteroid for it to pick up on my scanner? Intriguing topic in it own right. Also this brings up a topic I was going to look into later on which is Types of Sensors. Right now our Sensors are all heat-detection related. But would it be nice to choose other forms of sensor types? It could either be a swap with our normal sensors as we do have a fitting slot dedicated to our sensors OR it could be an internal compartment... maybe a probe-like feature. In the case of a probe, it could affect a specific zone so that all Silent Runners end up becoming Solid Targets, counteracting the whole vague approach they are going for. But anyways, that is a whole different topic altogether.

So ... what you would really need is being able to turn off the power plant as well (no more heat generation at all - possibly allows reaching 0%).

I hear with the new damage mechanics to it you will be able to repair it in the future - perhaps you can also turn it off ...?

edit: ^^^ I have a feeling certain things are also related to size (not only distance) - it's just a gut feeling but I sometimes get the impression larger ships resolve earlier than smaller ones (most notable when encountering mixed wings - you already see the small ones visually but the scanner doesn't show them yet) - so asteroids are simply too large and reflecting enough light to not be detected - canisters on the other hand ... well some of them contain tech to preserve what they carry so perhaps they do have a considerable heat signature.

As goeman already said, you are correct. Probably based on mass than actual size. So if you fit fittings on a Cobra that are heavy and add more mass such as heavy armor and have another cobra nearby that has most D-class fittings with low mass, its quicker to auto-resolve the Heavy Cobra over the D-class Cobra. This is me theorizing though... so verification would be necessary.

The issues is that Cold Stealth and Silent running should work the same.

Cold Stealth, your temp drops until is undetectable by another ship.
Silent running, you stop venting heat and become undetectable by another ship.

The way it actually work is both just makes you harder to detect. For game balancing, this is ok.

With Silent Running, you are detected but are vague contact. Their are three levels of visibility:

- Solid; Fully Visible. The opponents can see you clearly on their sensors and can navigate to find you with ease. Normal to High heat signatures w/o Silent Running contribute to this.
- Vague; Partial Visibility. The opponents can see you are their on the sensors but have no clue exactly where. Silent Running or low heat signatures contribute to this.
- No Contact; Fully Invisible. The opponents cannot see you at all on their sensors. They do not know you are there. Zero heat or undetectable low heat blocked from view would contribute to this.

Cold Stealth is the latter and hard to sustain. Its the reason why I say that currently you can never hide from sensors... you might be able to for a moment but thats it. They will know you are there eventually if only vaguely. So no, you are not undetectable with Silent Running and even in the current form of Cold Stealth in a practical setting.

 

[Na'Qan]

Just approach your target from 3km out , switch to FA-Off, pop a heatsink to drop your heat to zero, then a System reboot, you'll go invisible while rebooting and still approaching your target. You wont appear fuzzy till your on top of them.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Does enviromental effects interfere with sensors?

ie:

Nav-Point = Damn close to star, heat from sun makes sensors weaker

Ice-Belt = Far from star, VERY cold are, ships heeat more visible.

 

[PanicButton]

I don't think the enviroment effects sensors at all, however a star does affect your ships heat, so you will be actually easier to detect near a star, since you are running hotter than usual.

 

[Shorn]

Just approach your target from 3km out , switch to FA-Off, pop a heatsink to drop your heat to zero, then a System reboot, you'll go invisible while rebooting and still approaching your target. You wont appear fuzzy till your on top of them.

That sounds great - any idea how long a system reboot lasts?

 

[YinYin]

That sounds great - any idea how long a system reboot lasts?

Just test/time it yourself - you will need to get a feel for it if you want to use that tactic.