This is almost what I wrote in the other mega-thread a few days ago. But I suggested open/group players get their merits cut by 5x.Following up on a point that has been made elsewhere by some people and myself, let's reword Sandro's comment here...
At the moment, any way I slice it, I can't come to any conclusion other than Commanders in Solo have a tougher time than those in Open. Despite the possibility of PvP in Open, which can slow things down, Powerplay is predominantly a PvE game mechanic. The main way to get merits is via PvE actions and the only way to really support your power is through PvE activities. People in Open (and group) have the possibility to wing up to increase their effectiveness, especially when doing military strikes, because everyone gets merit points for taking out targets. Those doing deliveries in Open can wing up for protection against NPC interdictions, and the odd player interdictions. Players in solo must face those NPCs alone!
My suggestion is, to balance this, players in solo receive a PP bonus, perhaps 4x, to reflect the fact that hey cannot wing up.
However, later, FD can implement NPC wings, and this will redress this balance issue. At which point, Open would carry the higher risk, and a bonus for Open could be considered.
Powerplay Collusion Piracy and More
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
He's being, kind of, sarcastic. It's also a good point, as, IMO, the whole controversy is about a *perceived* imbalance regarding difficulty (Not entirely true, really it is about a supported imbalance of player usage per mode relative to other activities, but the reasons for that relate back to perceived disadvantage. You could just as easily perceive and support other advantages/disadvantages regarding game mode).
Anyway, about the comment: "PowerPlay, as I understand it, is a team work."
Is it? As AA pointed out, all the activities that make up powerplay are PvE oriented activities that in no way require a "team" of any sort to accomplish. It's as much of a "team" sport as a track meet. Individual competitors competing independently in independent events, contributing to an overall score for their team.
I agree that it was probably *INTENDED* to be a team activity, but the mechanics that they built the system around failed to accomplish that.
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Hence our call to have the PowerPlay mechanic revised. It seems to be designed to be a team-based activity but the actual implementation favors individual, shadowy characters, in solo or private groups.
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You see, it's this kind of broad-brush, Us-Vs-Them mentality that...
You know what? No, never mind. Put everyone in boxes and divide everyone with arbitrary lines. Be my guest.
That's fine. I agree PP could use a revision. But what ever revision that is should to apply equally to all three modes.
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"Only people working in the shadows, basically the cowards, would want to penalize people that are brave enough to play in open and not worried about their behavior being exposed for all to see..."
Tell you what sunshine, I'll show you my campaign medal if you show me yours?
This is a game, I'm now a partially blind 60 year old, and if I choose to play in group because I've no desire to mingle with testosterone fuelled kids who think combat is the be all and end all of Elite then I've damned well earned the right to do that.
If Frontier decide to throw a multiplier in for Open then I don't really care, but I will care if I end up having to grind longer for the same result I get now from my efforts. I do think they need to think long and hard about this, Sandro's suggestion was more of a throwaway remark at the time, 38 pages of at times vitriolic argument later I think he's probably spotted that there are a lot of factors to weigh up if this is done, to get it right....any fix cannot be a simple 'multiply by x' solution, as that is far too easily exploited.
Opinion is of course totally polarised on this issue, much clear thought is needed if such a change is to be made.
Dave
Tell you what sunshine, I'll show you my campaign medal if you show me yours?
This is a game, I'm now a partially blind 60 year old, and if I choose to play in group because I've no desire to mingle with testosterone fuelled kids who think combat is the be all and end all of Elite then I've damned well earned the right to do that.
If Frontier decide to throw a multiplier in for Open then I don't really care, but I will care if I end up having to grind longer for the same result I get now from my efforts. I do think they need to think long and hard about this, Sandro's suggestion was more of a throwaway remark at the time, 38 pages of at times vitriolic argument later I think he's probably spotted that there are a lot of factors to weigh up if this is done, to get it right....any fix cannot be a simple 'multiply by x' solution, as that is far too easily exploited.
Opinion is of course totally polarised on this issue, much clear thought is needed if such a change is to be made.
Dave
Sure, reduce Solo players' merits income by 10x at the same time then, see how unreasonable people become?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=237773&p=3685353&viewfull=1#post3685353
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Please, not helping the case.
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I have played power play since day one, as soon as it dropped really. In that time i have played power play in open play as i assumed it is meant to be played. the reason i assumed this is that i read all of the preamble and all of the literature which heavily promoted the concept of team play. Now please forgive my logic on this but team means more than one. There is no "one" in a team and seeing as were player we can say its multi player.
Now i have enjoyed this mode immensely having only played group play at most previously. I have met some great commanders, and not so great commanders. I have fortified, undermined and prepped my way round powerplay for months. I have been pledged to a power and had this great big target on my back saying kill me if you're a Fed. I have been involved in multiple wing combat and endured long periods of of nothingness while patrolling. I have ran that gauntlet of arriving in your HQ only to find it crawling with enemy commanders and accepting my ensuing death. I have lost millions in rebuys and wasted forts and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I have been privy to the extraordinary work and planning that people have put into power play and have watched disasters unfold.
The biggest danger to a power? Solo players. I have been sat in a system where we have had 2 wings vainly trying to stop people fortifying and seen not one target, but still the fortification climbed. I have been sat in opposition and not seen one enemy, yet their expansion increased. I have blown hundreds of millions out prepping our own solo players. How is it fair on us that play power play in open, as its clearly meant to be, loose hundreds of millions in rebuys lost forts and time. While players in solo run risk free. NPC's aren't exactly hard, try a wing of silent FAS and Rail de Lances.
Now out of all solo players the ones that hurt the most are the uninformed and 5c.
Uninformed:-
They fortify the nearest control systems to a billion percent, they know what they are doing and just don't give a damn for the most part. they are useful sometimes but more often than not your constantly struggling against their actions and oh boy theres a lot of them.
5c:-
. These guys run around in solo with zero risk zero consequence deliberately harming the power they are pledged to. I have no issue with the concept of subterfuge or 5ht column but it has never ever been without risk of being caught and executed. Its got out of controlhttps://www.reddit.com/r/AislingDuv...andings_for_the_week_starting_17th_of/d13xk5v DO YOU SEE THIS FDEV. GLOATING!!!
Now some of the proposed changes do go some way to fixing this however there is one really easy simple less time consuming fix.
Make earning to cashing in merits only possible in open. Now before the solo players blow a blood vessel THINK and READ about what power play is and its implied concept. Dont go crying when something that is clearly a team game makes you become part of that team.
Now i have enjoyed this mode immensely having only played group play at most previously. I have met some great commanders, and not so great commanders. I have fortified, undermined and prepped my way round powerplay for months. I have been pledged to a power and had this great big target on my back saying kill me if you're a Fed. I have been involved in multiple wing combat and endured long periods of of nothingness while patrolling. I have ran that gauntlet of arriving in your HQ only to find it crawling with enemy commanders and accepting my ensuing death. I have lost millions in rebuys and wasted forts and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I have been privy to the extraordinary work and planning that people have put into power play and have watched disasters unfold.
The biggest danger to a power? Solo players. I have been sat in a system where we have had 2 wings vainly trying to stop people fortifying and seen not one target, but still the fortification climbed. I have been sat in opposition and not seen one enemy, yet their expansion increased. I have blown hundreds of millions out prepping our own solo players. How is it fair on us that play power play in open, as its clearly meant to be, loose hundreds of millions in rebuys lost forts and time. While players in solo run risk free. NPC's aren't exactly hard, try a wing of silent FAS and Rail de Lances.
Now out of all solo players the ones that hurt the most are the uninformed and 5c.
Uninformed:-
They fortify the nearest control systems to a billion percent, they know what they are doing and just don't give a damn for the most part. they are useful sometimes but more often than not your constantly struggling against their actions and oh boy theres a lot of them.
5c:-
. These guys run around in solo with zero risk zero consequence deliberately harming the power they are pledged to. I have no issue with the concept of subterfuge or 5ht column but it has never ever been without risk of being caught and executed. Its got out of controlhttps://www.reddit.com/r/AislingDuv...andings_for_the_week_starting_17th_of/d13xk5v DO YOU SEE THIS FDEV. GLOATING!!!
Now some of the proposed changes do go some way to fixing this however there is one really easy simple less time consuming fix.
Make earning to cashing in merits only possible in open. Now before the solo players blow a blood vessel THINK and READ about what power play is and its implied concept. Dont go crying when something that is clearly a team game makes you become part of that team.
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Power play is a PvE race: whichever teams brings home the most PvE trophies, wins.
As an example, my power, LYR, has this description on the overview page: "Preparation: Social. Expansion: Finance. Control: Finance." Each requires hauling paper from Lembava to the target system. I can't find any reference that "open" or "combat" is required or even preferred!
Second, Solo and team play are not opposites! Solo players can work as a team by coordinating their actions. E.g. "I'll take care of finishing off system X; can you start on system Y?"
Your assumption that it is to be played in open, is just that: an *assumption*, most likely based on your own preferences. There is no base for it in the actual game play.
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It does seem to be an aspect of the game that will hold so much of it back, unless seriously addressed.
My proposal was to split any/all community totals/outcomes such that results are measured in an OPEN total and a non-OPEN total. And then these results are combined so as to form 50/50 (or even better 60/40) of the final total/result.
In this way OPEN is made important and cannot simply be washed away by SOLO activity.
Sandro's suggestion with Powerplay is to make OPEN more effective via a multiplier, and it will be interesting to see in action. But this approach IMHO would need to be across the board in any/all similar community totals.
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You do know that there could well be people in open, but if your " 2 wings" happen to be in the same instance, then it reduces the chance the match maker will place anyone else with you.
Unless you know 100% that everyone in your wings has a spanking fantastic connection, 8 - 12 seems to be about where the match makers settles without tweaking or doing anchor wings etc.
If any of your side has a slow connection, it will cut back who else it will drop in your instance that is not on your friends list.
But yea, let's completely ignore the P2P structure and the naturally low cap the match makers settles at, let's just blame S/PG players
Multiplayer games have all some technical cap. If you have the choice on servers, you'll probably choose one that has low latency. EU players will play with EU players, US players will play with US players. It's not that different with P2P but the choice is transparent.
But yea, let's completely eliminate open play since it's technically not feasible.
Edit: You also seem to forget that in P2P, the more the connections, the better the routing. But if no people play in open, then instancing will be crap no matter how much the developers improve it.
But yea, let's completely eliminate open play since it's technically not feasible.
Edit: You also seem to forget that in P2P, the more the connections, the better the routing. But if no people play in open, then instancing will be crap no matter how much the developers improve it.
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Yeh so you communicate with other solo players and decide to fortify system x because the game says it undermined. What you dont know is that its undermined and not fortified as its a rubish system and costs the power cc. What you may not realise is that its taken several cycle's to get it into this position. Because the majority of solo players play solo, they havent bothered to check any community site like reddit where thete are people who dont get to olay much because they go through the maths and devise strategies only for ot to be undone because a group who play solo only have decided to fortify a system out of ignorance of the wider plan. Dont get me wrong some Solo players do read and follow the reddit but they are in the minority. The fact that you earnerits from npc's have nothing to do with it.
You do know that there could well be people in open, but if your " 2 wings" happen to be in the same instance, then it reduces the chance the match maker will place anyone else with you.
Unless you know 100% that everyone in your wings has a spanking fantastic connection, 8 - 12 seems to be about where the match makers settles without tweaking or doing anchor wings etc.
If any of your side has a slow connection, it will cut back who else it will drop in your instance that is not on your friends list.
But yea, let's completely ignore the P2P structure and the naturally low cap the match makers settles at, let's just blame S/PG players
I take it you dont wing or play open much? I have 80:20 fttc so yeh i have a good connection and i do see players from us to Australia. If one of your wing has a dodgy connection what tends to happen is that on player cannot see either the rest of his wing or the enemy olayer that everyone else see's. I have had occasions where my wing were engagedin combat i could see them shootinv and their shields going down. I just couldnt seee what they are shooting at.
Just to help the idea flow ... drastic changes are not likely to happen.
It's going to be a case of minor tweaks here or there at best.
Those suggesting wholesale changes (like rip out PP [which is what I would do] or major changes like GF's essay) need to scale it down.
Source:
Ergo: FD are likely to do as they said - add some multiplier to open and take it from there. It's probably the simplest thing for them, but not necessarily the best.
Meh!
It's going to be a case of minor tweaks here or there at best.
Those suggesting wholesale changes (like rip out PP [which is what I would do] or major changes like GF's essay) need to scale it down.
Source:
Ergo: FD are likely to do as they said - add some multiplier to open and take it from there. It's probably the simplest thing for them, but not necessarily the best.
Meh!
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Bonuses for playing in open seems like a massive change in direction for a company that started by selling a single player game and changed course after it took money from it's backers.
Please don't.
By way of constructive engagement - powerplay is about mass actions and CMDRs shooting down every trader in sight gives undue influence to the combat pilots as combat against trade ships is very easy and quick compared to collecting and lugging supplies.
Any opposition to a trade mechanic should be done on a like-for-like basis. If the supporters are delivering propaganda to fortify then the opposition could deliver false propaganda to decrease the fortification level.
Please don't.
By way of constructive engagement - powerplay is about mass actions and CMDRs shooting down every trader in sight gives undue influence to the combat pilots as combat against trade ships is very easy and quick compared to collecting and lugging supplies.
Any opposition to a trade mechanic should be done on a like-for-like basis. If the supporters are delivering propaganda to fortify then the opposition could deliver false propaganda to decrease the fortification level.
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I really want to see players winging up to provide escort duty in ED.
It just seems like a way cooler solution than switching to solo/pg.
But unless there's a bonus in open, 1 traders + 3 escorts in open are always going to lose to 4 traders in solo/pg.
Nim
How does it make any more sense for SOLO/GROUP to give a "bonus"?
If OPEN results in a bigger "outcome" or reward, then surely that is in keeping with the potential greater risks found there... If CMDRs want to continue playing in SOLO, fine... It's business as usual. But for the game to actively reward CMDRs to play in SOLO, within community bases tasks/challenges (eg: PP) seems bizarre/wrong IMHO.
I totally agree with you Neil. Neither mode should have any advantage over the other. No differing rewards, no different gameplay, just a mode with other humans and a mode without so that each can choose what they want. And the game mechanics should make the action and opposing action both work across modes.
The risk in all modes should be made equivalent.
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Surely this will not happen. CMDRs will be more dangerous than NPCs, and if only because casual players would find hard NPC to overwhelming...
Now consider other issues like NPCs and CMDRs fighting so very differently. Look at PvP and PvE orientated outfitting of ships...
I agree in SOLO/GROUP NPCs should be as challenging as CMDRs in OPEN. But I don't think this can/will happen. And this being the case, SOLO/GROUP will then offer a safer/easier/more productive environment...
There's a new round of AI in the works. I'd hope that this could help. I'm sure that FD are up to it.
I'm not claiming that they will present the same experience, just a similar level of challenge. If not then the numbers could be tweaked so that they do. I'm sure that increasing the wing size of enemies would increase the difficulty and risk. Not that I'm suggesting FD do that - I'd hope the professionals would be more nuanced and artful than me
There will always be different builds out there but I predict the labels "PvP build" and "PvE build" will morph into "assassin build" and "endurance fighter build".
As to difficulty for newbies - everyone starts in a sidewinder in a galaxy with anacondas in it. There's a way of dealing with tougher ships - running away.