Colonization bug alert PSA

PSA there's a bug popping up currently where Refinery hubs (currently the one I've confirmed) are giving different (industrial) economy pressures, despite showing refinery on the nav panel. Hopefully it's fixed sooner rather than later! Still also waiting ages for our surface ports to give more than 3 commodities.
Issues:
Constructions not being built as advertised: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/74353
Surface Ports only giving 0-3 commodities: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/73231
 
Last edited:
its been like this from day 1 28th of feb.
Next week is new ship patch,if we get any fixes its gonna be it,if not theyre busy working on vanguards.
 
Oh sorry I looked at the tracker, it seems anything built now adds industrial economy by mistake.
It is a new bug .
 
PSA there's a bug popping up currently where Refinery hubs (currently the one I've confirmed) are giving different (industrial) economy pressures, despite showing refinery on the nav panel.
Constructions not being built as advertised: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/74353
For what it's worth, I think this is not a bug - it's far far worse - it's Frontier giving the players what they asked for...

Remember when all those people complained that their Orbis's around ELWs were stuck in "perma-Colony" economy, and surely the planet itself should be doing something here?

Frontier seem to have responded to that by giving all planets an intrinsic (and strong) economic influence of their own.

So what you now have is some Refinery influence from the hubs, and some much bigger Industrial influence from the planet itself.

In this transitional period, it doesn't look like it recalculates the station influence until you complete a new construction, so it looks like what you have is a Refinery Hub giving Industrial influence, but what you actually have is a Refinery hub giving Refinery influence, and the now-enabled planet giving Industrial influence.

Data so far - very limited, of course, right now, since this appeared to go in quietly late last night! - suggests that icy planets give Industrial and other types may do something else.
 
Interesting. Though surely an ELW or waterworld should give Agricultural? And it's difficult to see why a rocky world would give Industrial without factories, I'd anticipate something like Extraction.
 
This is another good reason why architects should be able to select the starting position for their initial colonizing outpost.

I’m currently building a Coriolis orbiting a non landable planet because it was either that or pick another system that was on whole inferior.

Another nice thing to change would be for the biggest assets to go to controlling faction. Just my $0.02 there.
 
This is another good reason why architects should be able to select the starting position for their initial colonizing outpost.

I’m currently building a Coriolis orbiting a non landable planet because it was either that or pick another system that was on whole inferior.

Another nice thing to change would be for the biggest assets to go to controlling faction. Just my $0.02 there.
It's not just that, we just lost a good two weeks of work building up a refinery station only for this to nuke the refinery economy with industrial.
 
It's not just that, we just lost a good two weeks of work building up a refinery station only for this to nuke the refinery economy with industrial.
Yeah and this is why in my opinion it’s best to plan small until we get better data and some adjustments to the mechanics
 
Bug or not, FDev needs to give us documentation about how this thing works!!

I did take a look at allready established systems and their planet type plus economy and it makes no fraggin sense in most cases.
Relying on investigators like the Doncaster or others who have time to make spreadsheets and what not is just wrong. And in this case blurs the lines even more.
You have an excellent chance here to make good on past mistakes and communicate things better and to implement tools into the actual game instead of us relying on outside third party tools or spreadsheet makers etc..

Come on FDev get your act together and stop making us stumble in the dark. I'd like it if you respect our time we put into this 'feature ready' update.
There isn't much left of my original enthusiasm and it's decaying day by day.

But hey! No worries we have an incoming ship for ARX wich we call "early access" My [redacted]
Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant.
 
I really hope this is a bug, because I know so many people who now have their refineries absolutely ruined by industry sucking up all the metal. You're safe if you don't build anything new. So if you have a strong refinery somewhere, don't touch that body! The moment you build a single new building the stupid "invisible hubs" of the body will kick in.

And this whole mechanic with mixed economies often eating their own production would be so much less bad if it gave a bonus of some sort to the other economy. Refinery eating up all the local extraction production? Fine, give the refinery market a bonus to its production to compensate. But no, all the industry markets killing our refineries don't even get to enjoy boosted industry. It's all downside with no upside. Which honestly seems to be the entire design philosophy fdev put into colonies.
 
I really hope this is a bug
It's definitely a very weird decision if not.

The previous design was pretty coherent:
- you needed to build all the settlements, hubs, installations etc. because that was how you got economic influence, and therefore were encouraged to build interesting systems for other people to visit (see also the unpopular but necessary decision not to let the architect pick which faction got each construction)
- you could decide whether you were building something for its economic influence or for its global properties (do you want a military economy, or just some extra security?) by where you placed it
- the Refinery economy was tougher to get than the rest (though still fairly easy) making self-sufficient colonies a little bit more challenging
- you could make pretty much any system with a landable body do something useful of your choice

Most of the problems with it came from players building stuff before they understood what that would do (which to an extent I'm sympathetic with, because someone has to test things first ... and to extent seemed to come from "I think the system should work this way so obviously it does" and committing 200kT to a build project before checking if it really did, to which Frontier had pre-emptively said "tough" in the release announcement)

Now:
- the planetary influence is so overriding that it makes building most things which give economic influence pretty pointless
- with the right system you can get a large refinery economy just by building a single station, so all the previous design to make that require more effort is irrelevant
- system functions were essentially (retrospectively) pre-determined in 2014
- it doesn't match the in-game documentation any more; anyone who built stuff (or builds stuff) according to the documentation is now retroactively wrong

It was instantly pretty worrying when Frontier said
we will continue to investigate ways to allow all facilities to find a route to market elsewhere within that star system
because that would just have created a whole bunch of unwanted hybrid economies somewhere, and while I think it's entirely fair that most players two weeks ago wouldn't have understood that they didn't want a hybrid economy, I would have hoped that Frontier would have been able to look at "players want their stations to produce stuff" and "hybrid economies work this way" and conclude that what players were asking for as a solution and what players actually wanted as a solution were almost completely unrelated. They've succeeded in that before...

But this planetary influence model is if anything even worse than that for messing with the previous coherent design, and doesn't even solve the "I built an Orbis around a single-slot ELW and now it's permanently a Colony" problem some early builders ran into, because there's no way to build anything else there and get it to recalculate...

But no, all the industry markets killing our refineries don't even get to enjoy boosted industry.
Though this potentially gets recursive - the industry market is also feeding a wide range of its exports into the refinery.

From an in-universe perspective this is reflected in the two halves of the market also having reduced imports, rather than increased total output - but of course from a playing-the-game perspective, reduced imports is also somewhat bad.

It's worked like this for the entire last decade, but other than the occasional player getting stuck on a "source HE Suits" mission, no-one has cared because it's never been at all relevant in the bubble how many commodities an individual station produces.
 
Hm, that change removes quite a bit of gameplay.
How about giving the players access to another, new, space installation that they can build.

The "Colonial Management Center".

To build it requires like at least half an outpost worth of stuff? -Maybe even just as much as an outpost.
And part of the material requirements are two or more Titan Drive Components. For the ritual - used as drums.
Also ten units of The Waters of Shinrarta (sellable on carriers now). For the ritual - used to create a mist of water the Commander walks through.
And several other very tediously annoying to get items that have significant value to sweaty players (raririty, limited quantity, time requirement, etc).

Its description should explicitly note that it's "for Commanders who insist on tediously micromanaging their colony's economies".
This framing is key - make people who don't build it feel smart.
Maybe have a player type "I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING - THIS CAN HURT ME" in a textbox before allowing them to even pick the asset type.

Completing construction of this installation will remove the "ez-mode auto-economy" only for the system it is in.
Not building it, which'll be the preferred choice of 98% of the playerbase, would have the economy guardrails active for the Architect.

Optionally, you could dock with this installation and then (upon delivering another ten units of Shindez Water) undergo the blessing ceremony yet again and have the servers recalculate all the economies from scratch based on relevant assets built.

Maybe you could even allow the economy guardrails to be toggleable with a month-long cooldown or something.
 
I'm really intrigued to know whether bodies were intended to have an effect in the design and we had a bug blocking it, so what they deployed was a fix; or whether quietly turning this on required new code and it was smuggled in so people didn't start asking awkward questions about what "feature complete" meant.

I actually think it was the first thing because I think "feature complete" is honest and simply making a mess of execution of good intentions is something we can rely on. And this influence does seem to be in the as-is seeded systems and turning it off deliberately in colonised systems seems like a lot of hard work for no real reason.
 
And this influence does seem to be in the as-is seeded systems
If you mean that the planetary influence we're seeing matches the patterns shown for economies in the pre-existing fully-procedural systems (at least as regards orbital stations) ... no, not really, based on the patterns seen so far.

If you think about the typical "big" procedural system then that generally has a WW or (usually terraformed) ELW with a purely Agricultural economy, and then the various HMCs inner and outer of that are usually Industrials. That's definitely not what you'll get if you take a system like that, colonise it, and build a station over each planet.

I'm really intrigued to know whether bodies were intended to have an effect in the design and we had a bug blocking it
If so it'd be an interesting example of the design actually being more coherent in terms of incentives and outcomes with the bug.
(There are interesting positive aspects to giving planets their own economic influence - in isolation - but none of the rest of the design supports them)

so people didn't start asking awkward questions about what "feature complete" meant.
This is fairly clearly within the scope of that anyway, even as a post-release design change. It doesn't affect what features are available, just what happens if you use them.
 
If you mean that the planetary influence we're seeing matches the patterns shown for economies in the pre-existing fully-procedural systems (at least as regards orbital stations) ... no, not really, based on the patterns seen so far.
I was asking that yeah, and the example of the as-is U19 situation was ELW. Unfortunately that example is effectively untestable in U20 because a player can't put Settlements on the ELW anyway.

So for instance in the U19 universe were Mining outposts influenced by what hotspots or asteroid types were nearby?


That's definitely not what you'll get if you take a system like that, colonise it, and build a station over each planet.
Yeah in the as-deployed code I agree. My question is whether that's as-intended or as-designed.

One problem we have now in sciencing this is the silent change to different rules (and possibly a different implementation server-side.) Because a lot of the reverse engineering done before last week may now be irrelevant and needs to be redone.

And I guess my second question/the speculation I had in my previous comment is whether it was MEANT TO match, then did not, and in that process FDev learned things about both the U19 codebase and the U20 codebase.

If so it'd be an interesting example of the design actually being more coherent in terms of incentives and outcomes with the bug.
I'm just wishcasting for a situation where, for example, a high-tech Coriolis above a high-silicon high-selenium planet with mines and refineries can export solid-state electronics that are as cheap as, well, chips.

(There are interesting positive aspects to giving planets their own economic influence - in isolation - but none of the rest of the design supports them)
So in U19 did HMC bodies not export the actual metals or ores they are rich in?

This is fairly clearly within the scope of that anyway, even as a post-release design change. It doesn't affect what features are available, just what happens if you use them.
I slipped into day job domain language again is guess - the concept of "mines can only mine ores that are actually there" would be considered a "feature" of the synthetic economic environment in many a Scrum even thought it is not a user-facing "As a Commander..." Story. So by that framing, the design change you allude to is introducing a feature, and the synthetic economy now consumes that feature which introduces system behaviour changes.

Again I've gone with mining there because ELW comparisons are blocked.

(Inb4: this is still true if you made the same analogy with waterfall and L1/L2/L3 requirements.)
 
So for instance in the U19 universe were Mining outposts influenced by what hotspots or asteroid types were nearby?

So in U19 did HMC bodies not export the actual metals or ores they are rich in?
Not really. An Extraction economy is an Extraction economy in U19, they sell the same goods in slightly different proportions wherever you go.

Most hotspot materials are mining-exclusive so never sold by NPC markets; all Extraction markets sell from the Rocky/Metal-Rich/Metallic range of materials and not from the Icy regardless of the local rings/belts, reserves quality, or anything else.

There are certainly specialisation ranges for Extraction economies which you could RP as somehow representing the (unknown) richness of the body they're on (we of course only get measurements of material elemental proportions, most of which don't share an element with the commodity metals and their ores) ... but equally you can get Extraction economies mining plenty of metal ores apparently off ice worlds, etc.

So no changes there for the Extraction economies we can build now.
 
Back
Top Bottom