Combat Logging: How do other games deal with it? And a possible fix for Elite.

[StuartGT]

And would you really like someone to go through a couple of dozen ways of making you disconnect while in combat with another CMDR? With a TOUGH response?

Please do. Also please give the probability of such an activity occurring to a CMDR in this game with an active playerbase of 200k+ per fortnight.

The paranoid would say "but SDC-type players will DDOS me!". The player-killer types number easily less than a thousand. Of those how many would have the financing and ability to DDOS someone, without interfering with their own internet connection (by launching the attack from their own IP)? Realistically less than a dozen:

• Obtain opponent's IP via game logs.
• Initiate a DDOS attack using a botnet controlled by the attacker.
• Lulz.
• All steps must be done within 30 seconds - the max time required to high wake.

Yep, that'll happen a lot.

 

[CmdrKafka]

If you remove any and all "costs" of dying in a game like Elite - then what is the purpose in becoming Elite?

"Yay I hit rebuy 1000 times and made Elite in 20 minutes!"

Of course - there is no "purpose" in becoming Elite - it's just a game to be played for one's enjoyment. At the end of the day, my gameplay enjoyment and lulzbunnies gameplay enjoyment are equally valid. It's up to everyone else to decide how they want to enjoy their gametime.

I'm not saying remove ALL cost of dying, but just reducing it to something reasonable... like resetting back to your last docking point (like in 1984 Elite). On the other-hand, although the cost is lower, we would increase the frequency by making all disconnections cause death, regardless of reason. So you die more, and sometimes just through bad luck, but with less cost. This should balance out if done correctly with the benefit of griefers being less of an issue. They will still exist and be an annoyance, but I can more easily shrug off a death where I don't lose 15M a pop on a Conda rebuy. The griefer today has so much power because they can cause such an immense cost to the player. By rebalancing the cost of dying we take away their power while still allowing for emergent open game play where anyone can attack anyone else.

 

[Chrystoph]

Before we get started, let's establish facts:


1. It's impossible to be 100% sure if someone combat logged, or if their connection was lost/disrupted. Not just in P2P, but even with dedicated servers.
2. We want to minimize the accidental punishment.
3. In ANY game with a dedicated server, disconnecting means you'd die anyways. REGARDLESS of the reason.
4. In many popular multiplayer games, There are HARSH penalties for leaving.


-------------


How does this work in other games?


1. **Halo** - [Read this from the Halo Subreddit for perspective](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/55dbfb/can_i_complain_about_the_ban_hammer_a_little/) Due to the crazy number of people who were quitting Halo 5 games early, 343i implemented *harsh* bans. ANYONE who quits cannot log back in for 30 *minutes* which doubles with every subsequent quit in 24 hours. Numbers are way down. Halo 5 is the most relevant as previous halo games did not have harsh quit penalties, and this led to extremely high quit rates.


2. **Overwatch** https://www.vg247.com/2016/06/23/ov...petitive-play-matches-are-not-messing-around/ Tl;Dr: you get increasing bans over time for leaving.


3. **DOTA2** Leaving Penalty is damn harsh. Here's a complaint post http://steamcommunity.com/app/570/discussions/0/882966056336164399/?l=polish


4. **Counter Strike** The ban systems works as follows:1st infraction: 30min. 2nd infraction: 2 hours. 3rd infraction: 24 hours 4th infraction: 7 days. Any one of these infractions get rest by my understanding after a week.


5. **RuneScape** If you log out mid-combat, your character persists in the game, and will die.

Note: I chose a mix of MMO's, FPS games, MOBAs, and F2P as well as Paid games. Why? because Elite costing money is no excuse for not punishing combat loggers.

You selectively chose a group of games that focus on fighting. Elite is more than just a fight, and most of the people you are ranting about are people that were not interested in you assaulting them.

None of the games that you speak of have penalties in keeping with the respawn costs or the loss of value that Elite inflicts on its populace.

Your argument is actually rather amusing in that you are complaining that you didn't get your reward for the other killing the player; in effect, you are using the anti-griefer argument with yourself as the victim. "They ruined my game play!, punish them!"

Final thought, if they lose when they stay and they lose if they log, do you really think that your idea is more likely to make them want to be your target and will stay with this game?

 

[Asp Explorer]

Yep, that'll happen a lot.

It'll not happen at all. Efficiency determines effort - and that kind of thing is going the opposite direction

 

[StuartGT]

You selectively chose a group of games that focus on fighting. Elite is more than just a fight, and most of the people you are ranting about are people that were not interested in you assaulting them.

None of the games that you speak of have penalties in keeping with the respawn costs or the loss of value that Elite inflicts on its populace.

Your argument is actually rather amusing in that you are complaining that you didn't get your reward for the other killing the player; in effect, you are using the anti-griefer argument with yourself as the victim. "They ruined my game play!, punish them!"

Final thought, if they lose when they stay and they lose if they log, do you really think that your idea is more likely to make them want to be your target and will stay with this game?

Elite Dangerous has three gamemodes: Open, Group, Solo. Open is Dangerous. Mobius PvE exists and is amazingly popular for precisely this reason. If players don't like being killed by randoms in Open, they can join Mobius: 24k+ CMDRs, social gameplay, no random killers.

 

[Asp Explorer]

If players don't like being killed by randoms in Open, they can join Mobius: 24k+ CMDRs, social gameplay, no random killers.

It might be advantageous for random player-killers to flee to Mobius before the real PvP players get them

 

[znôrt]

(by launching the attack from their own IP)? Realistically less than a dozen:

• Obtain opponent's IP via game logs.
• Initiate a DDOS attack using a botnet controlled by the attacker.
• Lulz.
• All steps must be done within 30 seconds - the max time required to high wake.

Yep, that'll happen a lot.

you actually don't need a botnet. a single corrupted packet that manages to crash the client will do. i'm sure there are plenty potential holes in the client to be discovered and the whole thing is easy to automate and share with others.

oh yes countermeasures. frontier indeed could fight this (as other games do) but it would be a big hassle for them and they seem to have no incentive to let themselves get drawn into the cat and mouse game. instead, they chose to take away the incentive from the griefers by tolerating combat log (yes, even if you post on a forum that it is an exploit and scores of kitten will die, if you do nothing else about it you're tolerating it).

and i understand their approach, they have already enough to worry about but above all don't see ed as a competitive game @OP: ed is just not the sort of game where addressing these issues would be mandatory. yes, the marketing is ambiguous about it but then, what did you expect from marketing?

 

[Mephane]

At the same time, get rid of insurance entirely. If you are destroyed you just start back wherever you last docked as you were at that time. You've lost any progress you made after that, but no other cost.

That's actually very close to my suggestion. It would be like reloading a save from the last point where you docked.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If you remove any and all "costs" of dying in a game like Elite - then what is the purpose in becoming Elite?

"Yay I hit rebuy 1000 times and made Elite in 20 minutes!"

Of course - there is no "purpose" in becoming Elite - it's just a game to be played for one's enjoyment. At the end of the day, my gameplay enjoyment and lulzbunnies gameplay enjoyment are equally valid. It's up to everyone else to decide how they want to enjoy their gametime.

Only for PvP. For PvE, all current penalties can stay as they are. Most MMOs do something similar - penalty for death in PvE, free respawn for death in PvP.

 

[Herbrand]

Elite Dangerous has three gamemodes: Open, Group, Solo. Open is Dangerous. Mobius PvE exists and is amazingly popular for precisely this reason. If players don't like being killed by randoms in Open, they can join Mobius: 24k+ CMDRs, social gameplay, no random killers.

You did not address his points in your reply.

Needless to say, I completely disagree with the OP. I combat log against griefers and will keep doing it until adequate gameplay mechanics that discourage this behavior are in place.
I'm well-acquainted with the community that tries to pass itself as PvPers when they're merely online sociopaths. They have only themselves to blame if people don't want to waste time playing with them.

 

[NoFans]

You should be shadow banned for a few months

 

[Herbrand]

You should be shadow banned for a few months

Username checks out.

 

[StuartGT]

I combat log against griefers and will keep doing it until adequate gameplay mechanics that discourage this behavior are in place.

Translation: "I cheat because I don't like player killers killing me in an Open gamemode".

They have only themselves to blame if people don't want to waste time playing with them.

Exactly what Mobius PvE was created for.

 

[Herbrand]

Translation: "I cheat because I don't like player killers killing me in an Open gamemode".

Against d*ckheads that have no in-game reason to attack me other than ruining my day? Yes, I will cheat.
I won't log against pirates, power-play commanders, fights in CZ or people who have a role-play reason to attack me, so the idiots are the only people who are damaged (and rightfully so) by my behaviour. Are you?

 

[Asp Explorer]

As long as you log off using the in-game menu (and are subject to whichever timer the game deals you) - you can do anything you like

 

[CMDR Greg Rickshaw]

How do we cure combat logging?

STOP TALKING ABOUT IT......

 

[Niewitch]

Combat logging Iant biggest problem. Its very minor problem in my point of view. I have never been pirate or pirated. there are so much better things to do. I dont care if someone do that, so what, wont ruin my game play at all. Beside it is allowed to use main menu to quit anyways.

 

[Tath]

If people are combat logging it is because:

- their loss (of time, effort, cargo, credits) is in gameplay deficit. This requires a gameplay-design solution.
- the encounter is not fun to them.

In player-player encounters this is partially the responsibility of the player attacker to address. If you humiliate the kid next door and push his face into the sandpit, don't be surprised if he does not want to play with you anymore.

 

[ick]

You did not address his points in your reply.

Needless to say, I completely disagree with the OP. I combat log against griefers and will keep doing it until adequate gameplay mechanics that discourage this behavior are in place.
I'm well-acquainted with the community that tries to pass itself as PvPers when they're merely online sociopaths. They have only themselves to blame if people don't want to waste time playing with them.

BOOM. Well said.

 

[deleteduser]

Agree mostly with the OP, but to avoid people wanting to CL in the first place and possibly make a 'safe space' (or at least a profitable space) for Solo'ers to dip their toes back into Open,

a) Issue massive, motivational bounties (10s/100s-of-Millions-CR) against CMDR's attacking Clean CMDRs in controlled systems (weapons not FSI, pirates gotta pirate). Insurance costs should increase with risk, so the higher the bounty the higher the insurance. Make bounties payable en masse, so a bounty of 10,000,000CR on CMDR -X- sees hunters A, B & C each receive 10,000,000CR if they were part of the kill team (score damage + remain in range).

b) Open Lawless is fair game and CL'ers can be punished as per OP, without exception.

 

[DARGAN]

(I am French, I use a translator, I hope the translation is good)

a screen Rebay it scares me..

if my connection crash at the wrong time with my ship "covette federal" à 900 million credit for a price of Rebay 35 million credit i cry [cry]

if the cost of Rebay increases with the value of the ship.. by against profits increases up to a certain limit which does not depend on the value of the ship.

I makes me more credit with my python yet its cost Rebay is 6 million.