Combat zone CG etiquette and tactics?

[Iron Body]

Mobius PVE rules of engagement in a CZ ..
Inside Conflict Zones the following rules apply:

• It is not allowed to attack a neutral player (a player not having chosen a faction)
• It is not allowed to attack another player while being neutral (not having chosen a faction oneself)
• It is not allowed to attack another player on the own chosen faction
• Only if both players have activly chosen opposing factions may they engage in combat
• It is not allowed to exit and enter a warzone in rapid succession for the sole purpose of targeting other players. Only if the wrong faction was chosen by mistake or by mutual agreement of the present players (For example in order for everybody to join the same faction).

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Don't pretend. The griefers that are hanging around the stations don't care what side you scored for. They just want the lols.

Yep. Been there the last few days for no other reason than to cause chaos. I did a few CZ's for Lyz but pve is just so boring.

However, as others have said, if you're trying to take out players at the station so they can't turn in their bonds, that's a sound tactic.

 

[TrollhunterX]

I'm no combat pilot and have the rebuys to prove it, but I must admit I'm enjoying the current combat CG.


The NPCs, for the most part, can be dealt with. However, how to handle other commanders in the heat of battle is another matter altogether.
With lots of flashing red triangles and a comms system in melt-down communication is not a meaningful or realistic option.

As I regard them as the highest threat, I do my talking via the medium of beam lasers and usually manage to drive them away from the CZ, but I don't kill them.
On several occasions, of course, it I who must "tactically withdraw" from the area or negotiate with my insurance company.

Occasionally the other CMDR (on the opposing side) has seemingly not engaged hostilities directly with me. Have they just not noticed, are they scared, is it etiquette to allow us both to participate, a “gentleman's” agreement I am oblivious to?



So is all fair in love and war, do you fire first, do you go for the kill regardless, do you take every advantage or is there a place for compassion and honour in a combat zone?
Have you experienced the treachery of green on green fire, or found new brothers in arms?

How do YOU interact with those hollow triangles in a CG Combat Zone?

Hammer: 'Do you agree to abide by the Intergalactic conventions of warfare?'

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Not really relevant in this instance, as the underdog is really the overdog, but it makes the point that in war, where the stakes are dire, unconventional actions are not just permissible, but practically mandatory (the grisly chair in Banks' 'Use Of Weapons' being one example).

 

[Northpin]

Mobius PVE rules of engagement in a CZ ..
Inside Conflict Zones the following rules apply:

• It is not allowed to attack a neutral player (a player not having chosen a faction)
• It is not allowed to attack another player while being neutral (not having chosen a faction oneself)
• It is not allowed to attack another player on the own chosen faction
• Only if both players have activly chosen opposing factions may they engage in combat
• It is not allowed to exit and enter a warzone in rapid succession for the sole purpose of targeting other players. Only if the wrong faction was chosen by mistake or by mutual agreement of the present players (For example in order for everybody to join the same faction).

Been a while since i last checked moebius (im in it on XB), but i thought attacking another commander was forbidden no matter the circumstances - including in CZ

 

[Morbad]

You don't win by winning/gaining something, you win by making the other one lose something.

That's how war works. It's overwhelmingly a zero, or less than zero, sum game. The 'winner' is usually worse off than before, but the loser is often dead or pushed into terminal decline and thus no longer a threat.

I would love it if the game were more plausible in this regard, instead of making gains absurdly easy and loss barely even possible. Of course, almost no one wants to be on the losing side side of things, so everyone has to win.

It's kind of depressing that I'll never really be able to feel like the underdog or have honest fear of failure in Elite: Dangerous. Jumpgate and Shadowbane were great for this stuff...some of the best video game experiences I've ever had were when my characters were on the verge of unrecoverable loss, despite me doing absolutely everything within my power (and the rules of the game) to succeed...no immersion defying self-handicapping required.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yup, I totally agree with that. It's well understood by those who play powerplay properly( 'i.e. open only') that you can be a target at any time. That's the mindset which makes it a lot more fun and 'on edge' that people who don't play it realise. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make ;-



But that's what you do then that's what you will be called, whether you like it or not. In the Open CZ, there is no ambiguity that you're fighting for the other side and therefore there's not a ground for complaint if you're shot down by another player (same for the above point about powerplay). However, you get killed by some one hanging around the station, you don't know if they have a 'motives' for trying to kill you or if they're just seal clubbing a weaker ship. 99% of the time a victim player will assume the attacker is just a griefer and the next trip they take will either be in solo, private group or in open with that attacking player blocked. So that's one less player to intact with and the open experience lessens a little bit more.

The only way round that is to remove that ambiguity. Like having someone constant putting up notices in general and local chat that the opposing side is attempting to blockade the station and those who attempt to dock at that station should be aware. There was a federal group that were shooting down transports leaving the imperial stations which was seen as a griefer move. The idea behind it was that they were trying to stop a "Thargoid Infection" spreading from the Imperial stations but because they didn't get the message out they were just seen as griefers. If you don't tell people why your doing it, they will assume your a seal clubber and call you out on it. If you can't handle that, then that's your own problem.

To me, motives are irrelevant because its you v whatever you see....there is no distinction between friend and enemy unless you know who you face. There are about ten people who I will trust implicitly, anyone else...well, I expect trouble.

I think expecting a motive is self defeating because outside of Powerplay you won't get one, and it will eat at you trying to justify outside events when in reality its another variable to consider.

 

[Iron Body]

Mobiius CZ rules taken just now from here ..

Elite: Dangerous PvE - Mobius - Rules

They seem quite clear to me, and are what I am following. If there are other statements, then someone in the Mobius command chain needs to clarify.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Deleted Post, due to being ninj'd

 

[Screemonster]

I would love it if the game were more plausible in this regard, instead of making gains absurdly easy and loss barely even possible. Of course, almost no one wants to be on the losing side side of things, so everyone has to win.

I'd love it if there was a downside to wars, like having every day you're in war count as -economy or something so that when you do finally come out of the war you might find yourself in a bust. Or even a very slight -inf per day for both parties (on the order of less than 1%) so the winner, if they achieve total victory, has a chance of coming out of the war in the state they went into it, but if it drags on then they'll end up losing out and fighting to a stalemate is always a net loss for both parties.

 

[Northpin]

That's how war works. It's overwhelmingly a zero, or less than zero, sum game. The 'winner' is usually worse off before, but the loser is often dead or pushed into terminal decline and thus no longer a threat.

No, not really. In the ancient times people were waging wars for plunder and pillage. They still do it today, but in less obvious forms
Not so in ED.

The only parts of ED where PVP makes sense and the player is directly rewarded for a kill:

• the combat CZ with commanders joining the opposing sides
• CQC (well, this is not exactly part of ED but it is marginally tied with it by a lousy System Permit)

In every other case - you dont get anything from the kill, but you really hope you just ruined the other one's day by making him lose something

 

[Rubbernuke]

What makes me sad is that nearly all of this is second nature to a Powerplay pledge while lots of people seem horrified, waggling strange rules at each other. The other thing thats darkly ironic is that it illustrates how great an Open (or part open with a dedicated PvP segment) Powerplay would be. This kind of thing would be happening each day in an ever evolving player driven plan- I mean this CG is one system, a typical Power has sixty.

sigh.

 

[Threeofseven]

I was referring to this CZ combat logger who was considered griefing by his actions (namely CL'ing, not killing) and has been reported. I trust you didn't see this video then? It was send to me in private, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to copy it here. If you say you are interested, maybe I could add you (I didn't start the conversation, so not sure if I can. Otherwise, ask Morbad).

I wasn’t aware of that, but cloggers are always present. I’ve ran into at least two this CG.

 

[Vetinari]

Hmm. Have to check that. Last time I read the PG rules was quite a bit ago, so they could have changed. But I rarely see another CMDR in Mobius anyway, so not like it's going to affect me. When I play open I expect to get shot at, especially in a CZ. I'd think an actual CMDR would be a CZ priority target.

For me its more efficient to get CBs from NPCs.

the player is directly rewarded for a kill:

• the combat CZ with commanders joining the opposing sides

It seems like it but its not, it can be a by-product, value zero - infinity:

Destroying a Cmdr with no idea of how much if any CBs they are holding. Might be none at all, complete waste of time and effort. Might be gazillions in which case well done. Still quicker to earn more CBs for yourself than hoping that enough Cmdrs are gonna die with enough CBs to offset what youre doing. Its a fools tactic, 'Ill hit them where it might hurt or they might not notice, either way my impact is far less than just doing the CZs and attacking NPCs', besides, I can only affect the ones in Open, if I do the CZ I can affect everyone in every mode'

 

[Bigmaec]

Mobiius CZ rules taken just now from here ..

Elite: Dangerous PvE - Mobius - Rules

They seem quite clear to me, and are what I am following. If there are other statements, then someone in the Mobius command chain needs to clarify.

Pretty sure those are the old rules, they got changed in 2017 to this:

Elite: Dangerous PvE - Mobius - Group Policy

 

[Morbad]

No, not really. In the ancient times people were waging wars for plunder and pillage. They still do it today, but in less obvious forms

Just because economic gain has been one of the primary motives of war doesn't imply that it's one of the primary results.

Waging war, in and of itself, isn't profitable, even if military spending serves as an impetus for economic development or war brings occasional windfalls from plunder and conquest. Failed campaigns, Pyrrhic victories, costly occupations, civil unrest at home, and rebellions in annexed territories are common, while even the most successful pillager states (Rome, Spain, Persia, etc) have eventually broken up when new conquests were no longer forthcoming or they were forced into competition with peer level societies. And those are the victors. The vanquished aren't coming home with pillage, they are being pillaged and dominated.

The only parts of ED where PVP makes sense and the player is directly rewarded for a kill

One doesn't need to be directly rewarded for PvP to make sense.

In every other case - you dont get anything from the kill, but you really hope you just ruined the other one's day by making him lose something

Still not sure how this is problematic or implausible.

The point of warfare is to achieve one's goals via the use of force. Harming the opposition goes hand in hand with that.

 

[Screemonster]

Destroying a Cmdr with no idea of how much if any CBs they are holding. Might be none at all, complete waste of time and effort. Might be gazillions in which case well done. Still quicker to earn more CBs for yourself than hoping that enough Cmdrs are gonna die with enough CBs to offset what youre doing. Its a fools tactic, 'Ill hit them where it might hurt or they might not notice, either way my impact is far less than just doing the CZs and attacking NPCs', besides, I can only affect the ones in Open, if I do the CZ I can affect everyone in every mode'

counterpoint: the bounty hunter I mentioned earlier. They were obviously an open player (hence why I was able to instance with them at all) and they'd been doing some serious hampering of my efforts over the previous couple of weeks - not in the wars themselves, I was winning those handily, but because bounties OP and every time I kicked their faction down, they boosted up - pulling the controlling faction away from me, and the faction that kept going into war back up to match mine. (ie. I was in second place, and they were getting in the way of my pushing for control by snarling me up in wars with the no. 3 spot)

I blew him up. Obviously, this took care of the bounties he was carrying at the time, but honestly? The bounties weren't the important thing here. I stung him for an anaconda rebuy, which... okay, that could be a setback or it could not. But he didn't show his face in the system in open again when I was around, and he stopped dropping bounties.

Sure, he could have easily just flipped to solo/private and kept going, but generally people that take pride in playing in open don't like doing that. Or maybe he doesn't want to switch modes for the sake of being unwelcome in one system.

People react unpredictably to being blown up in this game. Some people take it on the chin, others... well. Don't. For some people, the insurance screen is their cue to cash out.
Don't count on it though, 'cause for other people, the insurance screen might as well read "COWABUNGA IT IS".

 

[Old Duck]

Good idea for criteria, but FDev would need to fix the bug that gives you bonds for the opposing side when completing/failing objectives in high CZs

So that's why I keep getting free bonds from my enemy! I was wondering about this.

 

[Old Duck]

Yep. Been there the last few days for no other reason than to cause chaos. I did a few CZ's for Lyz but pve is just so boring.

But what about PvP? I'm doing CZs specifically for the PvP, and there's always enemy CMDRs to fight. I find this way more engaging that sitting in supercruise all day and play lasso with an interdictor. And unlike typical ganking, I'm getting PAID to kill other commanders!

 

[Morbad]

Destroying a Cmdr with no idea of how much if any CBs they are holding. Might be none at all, complete waste of time and effort. Might be gazillions in which case well done. Still quicker to earn more CBs for yourself than hoping that enough Cmdrs are gonna die with enough CBs to offset what youre doing.

If there is enough traffic and you've been keeping tabs on names, I would not be at all surprised if it were possible to cost more in lost bonds than one would be able to personally collect in the same period of time.

Of course, most people attempting this, even if they have rational in-game motivations, are going to be doing so because they find the gameplay more enjoyable, exciting, and challenging than going after NPCs.

Its a fools tactic, 'Ill hit them where it might hurt or they might not notice, either way my impact is far less than just doing the CZs and attacking NPCs', besides, I can only affect the ones in Open, if I do the CZ I can affect everyone in every mode'

The CG progress is a global pool. Preventing bonds from being handed in affects everyone in every mode just as readily as handing in your own does.

Targeting opposing CMDRs outside of the CZs is also not mutually exclusive of collecting one's own bonds. No reason not to engage targets of opportunity while in transit to or from the CZ.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

But what about PvP? I'm doing CZs specifically for the PvP, and there's always enemy CMDRs to fight. I find this way more engaging that sitting in supercruise all day and play lasso with an interdictor. And unlike typical ganking, I'm getting PAID to kill other commanders!

Yeah for sure. We were siding with Lyz and fighting the players joining the Imperials for awhile. That was good fun but now everyone is siding with Lyz. We had some fights with Spear last night which was also a lot of fun but I was just trying to kill everyone last night, even my friends