Combat zones/rewards/massacre missions are completely unfair and broken.
- Thread starter Smisbu
- Start date
Well I know that you posted because you get rinsed in CZs whereas I can't remember the last time I got my shields dropped in one, but since you obviously don't feel you need any advice and just want to have a little whine I'll leave you to it.
hm
1) I call me a rather good (not best) CZ combat pilot with >5000 kills in experience (and no deaths).
2) in 2.2.00 and prior I'm exclusively fighting in a FAS.
3) Sometimes sooner sometimes later you will get ganked up - and your shields will drop. Anyone that says different is like 4):
4) Today I decided to get my dusty Vette out and have a ride. Even simultan ganking from 8+ ships in CZs did only drop half a ring (lights got a bit darker). I couldn't believe... and I'm only at 3115 MJ shields...
So people in their engineered combat vettes with 6000+++ MJ and 60%++ resistance should not talk as if when others do struggle in CZs, they need to get gud or whatever...
It's only a matter of credits and grind (Vette, Rank and Engineering) to be near invincible in whatever AIs could throw at you... this has mostly nothing to do with skill!
I'm considering to go back to FAS - there I have some adrenaline junking time when shields got dropped, still 3+ enemies are on my six and I am still FIGHTING!!!!
1) I call me a rather good (not best) CZ combat pilot with >5000 kills in experience (and no deaths).
2) in 2.2.00 and prior I'm exclusively fighting in a FAS.
3) Sometimes sooner sometimes later you will get ganked up - and your shields will drop. Anyone that says different is like 4):
4) Today I decided to get my dusty Vette out and have a ride. Even simultan ganking from 8+ ships in CZs did only drop half a ring (lights got a bit darker). I couldn't believe... and I'm only at 3115 MJ shields...
So people in their engineered combat vettes with 6000+++ MJ and 60%++ resistance should not talk as if when others do struggle in CZs, they need to get gud or whatever...
It's only a matter of credits and grind (Vette, Rank and Engineering) to be near invincible in whatever AIs could throw at you... this has mostly nothing to do with skill!
I'm considering to go back to FAS - there I have some adrenaline junking time when shields got dropped, still 3+ enemies are on my six and I am still FIGHTING!!!!
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Seems like OP would give you a run for your money though..
The second point of OP, the massacre missions.
Yes, you're right... somehow...
Today I wanted some fun with my Vette (the first time I ever got it to a conflict zone)
So I did know the procedere, first get small missions done (massacre 3-12 ships for 40-60 K cr - hey, even my ammo is more expensive, but what gives...).
I' ve got 20 such missions (total 18 kills and 3 M cr about - I stayed longer in the CZ 'cause with this Vette it was so short....)
Then back at station, counting in... got rep increase to friendly and my first 4.6 M cr mission, YAY!
that was 30 minutes ago.
Loggoffski isn't helping this time...
Yes, you're right... somehow...
Today I wanted some fun with my Vette (the first time I ever got it to a conflict zone)
So I did know the procedere, first get small missions done (massacre 3-12 ships for 40-60 K cr - hey, even my ammo is more expensive, but what gives...).
I' ve got 20 such missions (total 18 kills and 3 M cr about - I stayed longer in the CZ 'cause with this Vette it was so short....)
Then back at station, counting in... got rep increase to friendly and my first 4.6 M cr mission, YAY!
that was 30 minutes ago.
Loggoffski isn't helping this time...
Sincere question: What do you expect people who are better than you with engineered ships to do? Because you appear to want to take their game away from them.
You'd like the game adjusted so that the most intense combat areas in the entire game are reduced so that you can manage them with whatever ship you are in at the moment and no engineered parts, no wingmates, and at your current skill level.
What happens when you are better and have nothing to do, because content was made easier for you?
Some things in this game are too hard for you. They are not intended for you... yet. Why are you trying to reduce the game's range of content?
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Maybe if you hadn't come out swinging and ranting and set the tone, that would not be the case.
Honestly, a 'help, I'm getting owned in CZs after taking a break from the game' post would have solicited much more useful replies.
I'm happy that someone understands what i'm saying.
I don't believe half of the people that posted they experience the same stuff and can cope with the ganks by only 'using your thrusters'. It just doesn't happen. The rate at which they destroy my ship is amazing. Just today I tried some of the stuff people said on the forums. Until 5 ships started attacking me. I started counting and it took them exactly 7 seconds to take my shields down and destroy my hull. that.
Most of the reactions in this thread are posted by people who have high ranks on the forums so I can only assume they play the game a lot.
Well I don't. I simply don't have the time. And as someone with a fairly cheap and low spec ship (vulture) I can say that they are unfair from time to time.
Also, I never once implied that I don't want advice or that I am better than other pilots here. I'm convinced that most people posting have more skill. But this is in-game AI we are talking about and someone who is master in combat shouldn't have too much problem fighting in CZ's.
I will admit that some of my reactions were mildly aggressive. But since multiple of my friends, who are higher ranked and play the game more than I do, are experiencing the same problem.
I am convinced that it's not just due to my incompetence in combat or understanding how the game works.
Players shouldn't have to compensate for the games lacking or broken mechanics. Like flying out 12km first before pledging just to make sure the AI doesn't derp and bug and 6+ ship gank you? No thanks.
I paid full price for this game and I even donated some money. This is a fully released game and I want it to work as such.
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Honestly I would have done that if that were the case. But my other friends never stopped playing and they are experiencing the same thing.
OP, I agree with points 3 and 6. However:
Combat ranking, in fact any rank, is a measure of how much x you've done, regardless of whether you're any good at it.
Probably gonna repeat what others have said here... You being master doesn't mean you've actually mastered combat. I've been elite for over a year and I'm still learning things. The most important thing is to not let yourself grow accustomed and complacent because of an in-game label. Tho I'll agree that this is a problem with the label itself since it's not measuring actual skill.
From the sound of it it doesn't look like you're actually skillful enough to do a CZ. Chicken and egg problem I guess - can't get CZ practice if you can't fight at a CZ. But your attitude, to me at least, looks to be the actual issue. For instance:
I'm one of this game's harshest critics that I know of and this isn't broken game mechanics. This is you expecting one thing and the game providing another. Managing aggro, aka situational awareness, is a critical skill.
Combat ranking, in fact any rank, is a measure of how much x you've done, regardless of whether you're any good at it.
Probably gonna repeat what others have said here... You being master doesn't mean you've actually mastered combat. I've been elite for over a year and I'm still learning things. The most important thing is to not let yourself grow accustomed and complacent because of an in-game label. Tho I'll agree that this is a problem with the label itself since it's not measuring actual skill.
From the sound of it it doesn't look like you're actually skillful enough to do a CZ. Chicken and egg problem I guess - can't get CZ practice if you can't fight at a CZ. But your attitude, to me at least, looks to be the actual issue. For instance:
I'm one of this game's harshest critics that I know of and this isn't broken game mechanics. This is you expecting one thing and the game providing another. Managing aggro, aka situational awareness, is a critical skill.
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Deleted member 115407
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No one ever complains when they gang up with three friendlies to shred an enemy NPC. They only complain when the enemy NPCs gang up to shred on them.
It's bound to happen. You need to learn to recognize it when it starts, so you can beat feet without losing your ship. My biggest combat rig is a Viper IV. Yes, it's recently engineered. Prior to engineering it, I was running CZs in unmodded or very lightly modded Eagles/Viper IIIs/Cobras, etc. Sometimes I got killed, most of the time I didn't.'
It's a matter of recognizing when the cards are down and pulling back your bets. If an Eagle or Viper III with Bi-Weaves can do this, a Vulture with a 5A shield ought to be able to do this.
I believe that a common feature of AI scripting is to regard the human player as the highest threat. The 10km thing is just a method that players have developed to prevent the insta-aggro that you're speaking of. It gives everything time to spawn and to pick each other up as "highest threat", that way when the player moves back into the fight, they aren't immediately ganged up on by everything and everybody. You will still be picked up as highest threat from time to time. You can mitigate this by using friendly NPCs to pull aggro for you, i.e. Now I'm being shot at by two friendly ships. I will boost quickly over to that group of three friendlies who don't appear to be doing anything. When they open fire on my targets it will take some of the heat off of me.
Sometime you get an NPC or two who just won't let up. That's fair. I've chased spinning, dead ships 20k out of the CZ just to finish them off, and I've done it with one or two friendlies accompanying me. I'm sure the NPC in that Asp we were chasing would have prefered that we peeled off and found something better to do.
I've also chased them to the point that they wake on me, and deny me the kill.... which is also fair because it's something that I do to them when I feel the odds are stacked heavily against me.
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Here is one legitimate complaint about Massacre Missions:
When a War ends, one should be able to end them without losing standing. Even if you don't relog much and just take what is on the board everytime you dock, you can end up losing a lot of standing with that faction depending on how many you still have open. Sucks even more if you have one with 70 kills and you have done 60. They should end and the reward be paid according to what you have killed.
When a War ends, one should be able to end them without losing standing. Even if you don't relog much and just take what is on the board everytime you dock, you can end up losing a lot of standing with that faction depending on how many you still have open. Sucks even more if you have one with 70 kills and you have done 60. They should end and the reward be paid according to what you have killed.
Deleted member 115407
D
Prior to 2.2.0.3 you could complete them anywhere outside of the CZs. It was valid gameplay and touted as intentional by the devs. They changed that in the most recent patch so that they only apply in CZs (and that to just prevent folks from using the massacre-skimmer exploit). I found it quite fun to find my targets wherever they would pop up, and whatever their role might be.
We plainly do understand what you are saying. You don't do what you should to survive in CZ. Somehow this is the games fault. When ppl give you tipps how to avoid being blown up you get all 'I know how to play the game' and 'If I have to do x then the game suxx'...
In short you don't want help you want ppl to agree with you.
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I think that "feature" contributes significantly to the fake difficulty aspect of the combat in Elite though. Upon being shot, AI will automatically regard the player as the highest threat regardless of whatever else is shooting at them. This is very noticeable in HAZRESs, where you can join a combat between a wing of pirates and a wing of system security and then within seconds the entire wing of pirates has turned on you and the system security have all heat taken off them. I think there would be fewer complaints about conflict zones if the AI had decent targeting algorithms rather than simply assigning players to the highest threat every time, so that players in smaller ships can assist allied forces without drawing massive amounts of heat.
For a more general reply to the thread, I feel that the rewards for CZ are completely useless, as even taking down Corvettes only gets you about 100K while a comparable ship in a HAZRES would get you 350-400K or so. Massacre missions alleviate this, however they simply reward you for doing what you were going to do anyway, there's no specificity to them and they don't provide any additional gameplay beyond just paying more credits; it almost seems like massacre missions were a hasty addition due to the CZ rewards being pretty terrible. Compare massacre missions to the trading or mining missions, where they request specific things which can influence your activities; imagine what trading missions would be like they simply required you to sell X tonnes of cargo in the commodity market, an activity that any self-respecting trader would do already? I feel that massacre missions should either specify a type of enemy such as specific ranks/ships types/ship sizes, or they should be removed from the game and an appropriate increase added to the regular combat bonds.
Deleted member 115407
D
I misspoke - I don't think that players are automatically assigned highest threat. I think that being a human player is a factor in determining highest threat. I've certainly, as a human player, engaged NPCs in the CZ with impunity while they focus on friendlies, only taking shots when I happen to drift past their bows.
This. When I do CZs in my Viper NPCs tend to concentrate on other ships...
I study game development by playing games. One of our the areas I learnt is, 'the psychology behind games and their communities'. One of the first things you leanr is: " expect people to complain and critique your game technique. Don't hate it but accept and embrace it.". This seems to be something a lot of people in this community seem to really bad at. They can't be told that their experience can improve if they stop complaining and listen, they believe their view os the only view and perfect in every possible way. Every online game has this elitism/ignorance and especially mmo's.
Does that help Cmdr Smisbu? Otherwise plenty of definitions of orony on the Internet.
Cheers
Simon
I spent the last 3 days in CZs, never even lost my shields. Sure, I got ganged up on plenty of times, but when things got bad I just boosted away and went back to the station to reload. I'm not sure how NPCs determine which ships to target but they seem to love my FdL, whereas my Anaconda only slightly interests them. SLFs certainly get their attention. I'm getting sick of my crewmate whining about being shot at.
I do a lot of CZ missions in an unmodded FAS and rarely die, mostly because it's possible to predict when a "focus" attack is likely to happen. Always keep track of the proportion of green vs red ships on your radar, and if the reds begin to outnumber the greens noticeably, get the hell out even before you are attacked. Either boost away if the situation doesn't look too bad, or low-wake out if it's more serious. When you return you'll get another spawn which may have more greens than reds depending on the RNG.
The weaker your ship, the more vigilant you should be in following this rule. Remember it's you who choose to fly an unmodded Vulture in a CZ and you can't expect to do miracles with it. For me, the risk of getting killed by a "focus" NPC attack is part of what makes CZs fun. It's a challenge to do them in a FAS - well-known for its weak shields - though probably not as tough as doing them in a Vulture.
The weaker your ship, the more vigilant you should be in following this rule. Remember it's you who choose to fly an unmodded Vulture in a CZ and you can't expect to do miracles with it. For me, the risk of getting killed by a "focus" NPC attack is part of what makes CZs fun. It's a challenge to do them in a FAS - well-known for its weak shields - though probably not as tough as doing them in a Vulture.
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