Newcomer / Intro Complexity in Elite Dangerous

[Echinoidea]

So, I've been playing for a few hours now (I know I need to give it more time and I fully intend to), and one thing which is bothering me is that there doesn't seem to be any real depth to the gameplay mechanisms, with the possible exception of combat. So you understand where I'm coming from, I predominantly enjoy games which give me a high degree of intellectual stimulation - something with either sim-like aspects, a complex storyline or challenging puzzles. Given this I'm wondering whether Elite: Dangerous is the game for me. To give a few examples:

Exploring: There doesn't really seem to be any way to get better at exploring, you fly to an unexplored system, drop out of supercruise, run an automated scan a few times in various locations, hang around unexplored objects for another automated scan i.e. it's all automated. I would prefer something where I actually have to interpret the results of my exploration instruments and make deductions about the system e.g. the frameshift drive might give me an indication of the total mass of the system, a discrepancy between this and the mass of the main star (estimated by size and type, or graviational pull and distance) might give me a clue about large planets or other stars in the system. I then need to fly to various locations to observe the motion of the sun against fixed background stars to estimate the orbits, the locations that I choose influence how good a triangulation I get etc.

Docking/taking off: This is simpler than parking a car, and doesn't really convey the impression of being in a highly complex and advanced spacecraft. I want checklists to run through, and not just a control checklist like is in the pre-flight check option, something that actually has an effect on gameplay - e.g. my aft thrusters might have malfunctioned, I can either remember to check them before flight and get them repaired, or I take off and find I can't slow down (so have to take flight assist off and do clever stuff with the other thrusters to get back down to the landing pad).

Navigation: Again, no way to be better/worse at this, it would be nice if there was some sort of alignment/routing mechanic (gravitational slingshots, whatever) that would make the difference between a good and bad navigator in terms of fuel efficiency, speed, safety etc. Again, this is all automated.

So people, is there anywhere I can find the sort of complexity I'm looking for in E: D, or am I better off sticking with flight sims, kerbal space program and portal?

P.S. None of this is intended as a criticism of Elite: Dangerous, it's a damn fine open world sandbox RPG, I was just personally hoping for something a little more sim-like, and just wanted to see whether people think I'd find something for me in it if I persevered, or whether it's just not the game for me.

 

[bitstorm]

People want different things. Check out the number of posts complaining docking is too hard and therefore once you get close enough you press a button and just appear in the hanger. =(

In all honesty I don't think you'll find the complexity you want in ED, slingshots, masses of dials etc...

If anything it may end up going the other way, a lot of new players seem to be popping on to rage about one aspect or another that's "too difficult", please stand firm Frontier.

The most complex part of Frontier currently I'd say is combat, but that's more fast management of various components depending on what's going on rather than any sort of cerebral planning sort of affair you seem to be looking for.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Difficulty and depth are not the same thing.

Power management, as you said, takes some time to learn (difficulty) and once you have knowing what to allocate where (depth) takes time to master.

There is little else in ED that is as deep ...



(my post isnt a complaint - I like ED - great for unwinding at the end of the day )

 

[Echinoidea]

People want different things.

Indeed, hence my comment that it's fine game, but possibly not my game.

In all honesty I don't think you'll find the complexity you want in ED, slingshots, masses of dials etc...

If anything it may end up going the other way, a lot of new players seem to be popping on to rage about one aspect or another that's "too difficult", please stand firm Frontier.

The most complex part of Frontier currently I'd say is combat, but that's more fast management of various components depending on what's going on rather than any sort of cerebral planning sort of affair you seem to be looking for.

That's the impression I was getting, it's a shame that the game I'm looking for doesn't really seem to exist - a combination sci-fi setting, flight sim complexity and "serious" tone (so not KSP). Artemis comes close, but most of my friends aren't sci-fi geeks, and those that are don't play computer games, so it would be challenging to come up with the 4-6 people over LAN required to play it properly.

 

[Richard]

Sounds like Orbiter might come somewhere close. It's got all the flight sim complexity you could want but there's not much to do other than flying.

There is something of what you're looking for in the current navigation mechanics, in that you can optimise your course in order to avoid gravity wells, and so speed up your overall journey. Likewise for exploration, there's a bit of a knack to picking out distant stars in a binary system, and locating planets by their motion across the sky. The basic discovery scanner only has a 500ls range, which is a bit limited for completely mapping out a system automatically.

With regards to docking and taking off - my gut feeling is that highly advanced spacecraft will have distilled these procedures down to something like what we already have in-game, rather than Apollo style checklists and 'a button for everything' control panels. Also, given that docking/undocking are something that players will necessarily do over and over again, I think there would be a lot of resistance to having complicated checklists and stuff to do each time. Personally, I think the game has it about right with the current animations, as a balance between launch procedures to follow and automagically ejecting you into space. That's just my opinion though.

 

[lysan]

Those who complain should play DCS A10 for 10min, after that time they still haven't started their engine ....and I love it.
So just bring it on FD, make it more complex

 

[Echinoidea]

Sounds like Orbiter might come somewhere close. It's got all the flight sim complexity you could want but there's not much to do other than flying.

Yeh, I should probably check out orbiter

There is something of what you're looking for in the current navigation mechanics, in that you can optimise your course in order to avoid gravity wells, and so speed up your overall journey. Likewise for exploration, there's a bit of a knack to picking out distant stars in a binary system, and locating planets by their motion across the sky. The basic discovery scanner only has a 500ls range, which is a bit limited for completely mapping out a system automatically.

Hmm, that sounds promising - maybe I should just avoid ever upgrading my discovery scanner so I have something fun to do "manually".

With regards to docking and taking off - my gut feeling is that highly advanced spacecraft will have distilled these procedures down to something like what we already have in-game, rather than Apollo style checklists and 'a button for everything' control panels. Also, given that docking/undocking are something that players will necessarily do over and over again, I think there would be a lot of resistance to having complicated checklists and stuff to do each time. Personally, I think the game has it about right with the current animations, as a balance between launch procedures to follow and automagically ejecting you into space. That's just my opinion though.

Well, a highly advanced spacecraft would be able to do more or less everything we currently do in game automatically, including most of combat, so if you want realism be prepared to do a lot of sitting around while the computer flies the ship. Oh, and there's two ways to look at the over and over again argument - for me that's exactly the reason I would like it to have some more complexity. A checklist is only boring if it goes the same way every time, if 5-10% of the time it throws up something unexpected that you have to troubleshoot and correct that's interesting gameplay right there. It also makes your ship feel like something that's actually been engineered, rather than a homogeneous block that magically flies.

Again I fully realise that I'm in quite a small minority here, so I don't really feel the game should do any of this if it wants to appeal to people, I'd just quite like one space combat game sometime, somewhere, that did.

 

[LeLv30_Superbus]

Those who complain should play DCS A10 for 10min, after that time they still haven't started their engine ....and I love it.

Even though you and I love the complexity of DCS A-10C, the "E is too difficult" -crowd most certainly would not see its glory. Not everyone has time to study a game.

Let's hope FDEV at least adds keyboard shortcuts for us, so we get to use all our cockpit controls in E! I'm talking about the various systems on/off switches.

 

[Eleazaros]

So, I've been playing for a few hours now (I know I need to give it more time and I fully intend to), and one thing which is bothering me is that there doesn't seem to be any real depth to the gameplay mechanisms, with the possible exception of combat. So you understand where I'm coming from, I predominantly enjoy games which give me a high degree of intellectual stimulation - something with either sim-like aspects, a complex storyline or challenging puzzles. Given this I'm wondering whether Elite: Dangerous is the game for me. To give a few examples:

Exploring: There doesn't really seem to be any way to get better at exploring, you fly to an unexplored system, drop out of supercruise, run an automated scan a few times in various locations, hang around unexplored objects for another automated scan i.e. it's all automated. I would prefer something where I actually have to interpret the results of my exploration instruments and make deductions about the system e.g. the frameshift drive might give me an indication of the total mass of the system, a discrepancy between this and the mass of the main star (estimated by size and type, or graviational pull and distance) might give me a clue about large planets or other stars in the system. I then need to fly to various locations to observe the motion of the sun against fixed background stars to estimate the orbits, the locations that I choose influence how good a triangulation I get etc.

Docking/taking off: This is simpler than parking a car, and doesn't really convey the impression of being in a highly complex and advanced spacecraft. I want checklists to run through, and not just a control checklist like is in the pre-flight check option, something that actually has an effect on gameplay - e.g. my aft thrusters might have malfunctioned, I can either remember to check them before flight and get them repaired, or I take off and find I can't slow down (so have to take flight assist off and do clever stuff with the other thrusters to get back down to the landing pad).

Navigation: Again, no way to be better/worse at this, it would be nice if there was some sort of alignment/routing mechanic (gravitational slingshots, whatever) that would make the difference between a good and bad navigator in terms of fuel efficiency, speed, safety etc. Again, this is all automated.

So people, is there anywhere I can find the sort of complexity I'm looking for in E: D, or am I better off sticking with flight sims, kerbal space program and portal?

P.S. None of this is intended as a criticism of Elite: Dangerous, it's a damn fine open world sandbox RPG, I was just personally hoping for something a little more sim-like, and just wanted to see whether people think I'd find something for me in it if I persevered, or whether it's just not the game for me.

You are like me, just getting started and, as such, you are missing things - parts of the puzzle/equation.

Example with Exploring.

1) BSD = basic. Go to a large system and look around a bit. You'll find things at very distant ranges from each other -- THOUSANDS of ls from the sun in different directions.

Now - plan out for me checking such ranges in an empty system. Buy a better scanner... Eventually. Until then how do you plan on scanning out each system? Just what you can find in a fast run through or ???

2) Surface Scanner. Without that you do a basic scan - the surface scanner is used to scan the surfaces of things which increases the value of the information you obtain. I don't have one and haven't used one yet so let's ask about it.

I can see value-add for this for scanning planets but suns? How about those asteroid clusters I find? ... No idea.

There's a bit more to it and a lot I don't know. There are also aspects of the game "yet to be expanded into" - such as walking in stations and on planets which raises the question - what would you find on a planet you scan fully and then surface scan and did you find anyting on the surface... If so can you go down there?

There's a bunch of time before such things will be added but I'd assume it will take a LONG time to build up enough practice and scanning of all the various stuff out there.

Don't sell it short because the surface looks more shallow than it may be.

 

[OrientalHero]

Heh, having played some flight sims, Harpoon naval wargame etc, I'm quite worried that FD will dumb down the game.
I welcome your post saying that its too straight forward and lacking depth....
Some other posters have already pointed you at the energy management but that really only changes from ship to ship unless you wildly change loadouts/power distributor/power plant.
I'd say that progression in various factions or actual influence over a system is probably more of a challenge (see the Lugh update in the newsletter).
And do check out the Exploration details in the players manual. Stellar Parallax is your friend (and quite fun I find).
The advanced discovery scanner is not your friend as from what other posters have said, it scans a lot further so you don't need to look manually which removes that bit of fun! I think I'll only get the intermediate so I have some fun exploring.
Clear Ether Pilot!
(ancient EE Doc Smith Lensman quote)

 

[Ted Striker]

Exploring should become a lot more in depth when we can land on planets.

I think there's also a lot more depth to the faction system than we realize. A lot of the missions I do seem to slightly raise the influence of a particular faction, and the flavor text of some of those missions suggest that eventually other stations or even entire systems might change allegiance (like the feds sending you to an independent station). If the devs further develop the system behind the three major factions (feds, empire, alliance) to include things like war, friendly vs dangerous systems to travel through depending on your chosen faction etc. then influence and missions that alter it can be highly important. I can envision altering the influence of a station or system enough that it changes allegiance and prevents the other factions from docking or even traveling through without difficulty.

I used to play game called Darkspace that did this on a very small scale. It was like a galactic chess match, constantly capturing planets and changing who controls a system and it's resources. ED is mind-bogglingly massive and potentially a lot more complex and in-depth than that and I hope they develop it much further.

 

[Bacbuk]

With everything in Elite Dangerous it is up to you how complex you make things.

Take trading; you can jump to the neighboring system with a cargo hold full of random items and end up making a small profit/loss or you can use your brain and calculate using a combination of the galaxy map, market info and news information feeds and produce a profit run that will make you thousands.

You could also turn flight assist off to make flight a hell of a lot more interesting, keeps me on my toes.

Try to be trusted with one faction, for me that's proving to be a little challenging, or try to start a civil war in a system.

Scan unknown systems to maximize exploration profit.

Find a rich mineral field and harness all of its resource without alerting other people to your find.

Corrupt the common market.

Pirate all trade vessels and bring a system to its knees.

and many, many more options

 

[Richard]

Well, a highly advanced spacecraft would be able to do more or less everything we currently do in game automatically, including most of combat, so if you want realism be prepared to do a lot of sitting around while the computer flies the ship. Oh, and there's two ways to look at the over and over again argument - for me that's exactly the reason I would like it to have some more complexity. A checklist is only boring if it goes the same way every time, if 5-10% of the time it throws up something unexpected that you have to troubleshoot and correct that's interesting gameplay right there. It also makes your ship feel like something that's actually been engineered, rather than a homogeneous block that magically flies.

Heh - that's true enough. Amusingly enough I found an NPC Lakon pilot yesterday called 'Flyingbreezeblock'.

Again I fully realise that I'm in quite a small minority here, so I don't really feel the game should do any of this if it wants to appeal to people, I'd just quite like one space combat game sometime, somewhere, that did.

Let me know if you do find it - sounds like it would be fun. Fellow KSP player here incidentally, and I do try and play it reasonably seriously, rather than going with the 'moar boosters' style of gameplay. So yeah, I can see the appeal.