Complexity, to little to much?

[Luniticisi]

@ Pecisk

As you seem to back up most of what I have said in your replies, I only really have one thing to say. and that is the reason that the BIG publishers went off the Space-Sim game was due to the fact that they began to sell less and less units .. Now crowd funding has Proved that there is a huge demand for a great Space sim game .. Just look at Star Citizens figures!

Maybe the demise of the space sim was 'Complexity' too much going on for the average gamer to be bothered with, Maybe the revival of the genre will be at the hands of Elite, S:C or X-R or one of the Many space games now up-coming as the the genre has been reborn, and revitalised.

as to Aliens: CM the publishers had nothing to do with the blatant lie that the developers sold the public, as their game engine wasn't capable of producing the style they portrayed in their demo, even the much better version that they patched to wasn't near the demo ... i do agree with Rome 2 though.

 

[Cosmo Bozo]

Complexity should be optional.
ie; the choice of whether to manage your ships systems yourself, or to automate them.

On the other hand, the stories, plotting and moral dilemmas in the missions should be as complex as they come

 

[Cody]

<nods>

On the other hand, the stories, plotting and moral dilemmas in the missions should be as complex as they come

This especially!

 

[Perseus]

Maybe the demise of the space sim was 'Complexity' too much going on for the average gamer to be bothered with, Maybe the revival of the genre will be at the hands of Elite, S:C or X-R or one of the Many space games now up-coming as the the genre has been reborn, and revitalised.

I saw Mr Braben talking about making a game he was itching to make. He helped make the first one and it was awesome, a part of my childhood. So I backed him and joined the forums.
The gaming industry seems to be telling us (the players) what to buy, what is good, what isn't. Most games released have no interest for me, I find most of them graphically breath taking but dull and repetitive. Dumbed down, in fact. Good for relaxing with mates with; drinking, smoking, yapping, playing. Good for hyping up and shifting units for money orientated publishers. Bad for engaging dreamers minds.
I want a game I can play. I want it to be full of rich content, challenge, mystery, diversity and........>drum roll<........complexity!
FD are not stupid, they know they live in the real world even as they give us our fantasy one. They have to make money like all of us. The difference is, I don't think money was the primary consideration at the genesis of ED. Passion was though.
The game seems to be developing as something easy to learn and difficult to master.
This post has a value no greater than 2p.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Maybe the demise of the space sim was 'Complexity' too much going on for the average gamer to be bothered with, Maybe the revival of the genre will be at the hands of Elite, S:C or X-R or one of the Many space games now up-coming as the the genre has been reborn, and revitalised.

I'd say that both somewhat complex games (X, Freespace, etc.) and more streamlined 'arcade' style games (Rogue Squadron, Starfighter) were available at the time the genre started to fizzle out. They were all good enough, but not really an amazing experience, and sold okay but obviously not the kind of volume that interested publishers.

In my opinion, there's little point in trying to identify specific things that could be the cause of and solution to 'the problem', and trying to build a game around that. It's what publishers do when they make uninspiring genre crud. Be brave, experiment, make an awesome game, and hope that it's enough to bring out the buyers. If it's not, at least you've made a game that you can be proud of, and not some generic rubbish.

 

[amigacooke]

thanks.

the poll is really for me to see how others feel about the game. I wasn't sure if people thought that the game was turning into something other than what was sold to us. so far it feels that most are happy feeling that ED is developing how they expected it.

One of the problems with theses polls is that they represent such a tiny proportion of backers. Fun maybe, informative or representative, hmm.

 

[Cwini]

Plus, the results shown so far are kind of expected - faith in DB to deliver basically.

We know he's making the kind of game he wants to play. He teased us with Elite back in the 80s (when technology wasn't quite there for his vision) - Now the techs here, we're all more mature, and whilst I feel I am getting old and the grey matter is slowing somewhat I kind of feel revitalised by the knowledge of this game so bring it on .. If it's too complicated then it gives me something to strive for, if it's too simplistic chances are that boredom will creep in.

DB will do us proud ... it's why I backed him.

 

[kilvenny]

The capital ships video was to showcase the music score not to be representative of game play as a whole. Yes its showing something of the ship models, the flight etc, but what its not showing is the depth of simulation around trading/planets and the immense scale of the galaxy. Nor does it show you the evolving galaxy as events are introduced and missions accepted and declined or even failed.

Having said all that one of the big things that must be got right is the flight model. It must draw us players in so we want fly down and observe the planets, the space stations being built and we want to fly through asteroid belts manually. We want to engage in combat and see decent explosions etc. Rather than marvel that the physics is right, I want to have fun. I played Elite for months because flying the craft was fun.

For me the galaxy is where the physics needs to be. And the complexity is in the background simulation and the galaxy where you can enjoy it and the complexity is hidden behind the front end. Space flight needs to feel like fun.
I am confident it will be but that's the first thing I am going to look at when I get my grubby paws on the game

 

[Luniticisi]

I just want to make it clear that I do not want an 'Arcade' or simplistic space shooter .. I want ED to be involving, interesting and most of all (something that it seems only Frontier are doing) have a believable, realistic galaxy ... make the game as complex in design as they want, the more detail the better .. but what I have asked the forum and what Mobius has asked all eventually boils down to the flight mechanics of the game. I have no problem with the whole game being extremely complex .. just make flying your ship fun.

As I have said, I Hate (and I know how strong that word is) the FE2 and FFE flight mechanics ... they were too hard to learn (for me) and I got sick, very quickly with the autopilot ... I want to fly to point A and then to point B and not have what was essentially a quick travel ,instant'ishly appearing in a space dock or on a planets surface .. I would like to know how many people that loved Frontier and FFE's flight DIDN'T use the star dreamer controls to navigate or dock or pretty much everything else but fight (good old Jousting in space. really, that was fun?)

to add to that if you fancied a fight you could just jump to a system sit there and speed up time until someone attacked, fight them and rinse and repeat .. Total immersion ! what a load of nonsense ...

Give me the complexity of FE2 and FFE without the flight model, mix the original game with the sequels .. make flight better than it was in Elite but keep it simple ... that is what I would like.

 

[Hamerstein]

I think it would be very easy to look at the DDF and the archives and come to the conclusion that ED is going to be too complicated. Personally I think I may be getting more than I expected, but in a very good way.

Much of the DDF discussions have been at a level that will never be apparent to the player while playing, background simulations, game physics, damage models etc.

It's important that the interface isn't too complicated, while allowing the player to still do all that they need to do - as a pilot of a spaceship. That's one thing that FD have to be spot on about to retain game balance.

The other is the flight model and while I feel that needs to be more than just a plane in space, it cannot be completely realistic and still retain a compelling combat medium.

If those two things are balanced correctly for the majority (because there will always be dissenters), then the game is a winner.

 

[Jenner]

I think it would be very easy to look at the DDF and the archives and come to the conclusion that ED is going to be too complicated. Personally I think I may be getting more than I expected, but in a very good way.

Much of the DDF discussions have been at a level that will never be apparent to the player while playing, background simulations, game physics, damage models etc.

It's important that the interface isn't too complicated, while allowing the player to still do all that they need to do - as a pilot of a spaceship. That's one thing that FD have to be spot on about to retain game balance.

The other is the flight model and while I feel that needs to be more than just a plane in space, it cannot be completely realistic and still retain a compelling combat medium.

If those two things are balanced correctly for the majority (because there will always be dissenters), then the game is a winner.

You said it perfectly. +1

 

[Calebe]

Space flight when the game takes place has been going on for a thousand or more years. Ships will be like cars now, easy to use, and not to complex for the average person. People look at a space game, look at today's technology and say these are complex machines, and Newtonian physics have to be maintained. Forgetting again space ships in the future are the cars of today. People have them, use them to travel to other planets as we travel to other states or counties or cities. No difference.

So the control system became easier to use, the computers so much more advanced then today makes corrections for you that you don't even realize they are doing it. Fly by wire perfected over a thousand years ago. Honestly fly by wire is in daily use today and will be the normal on everything by then.

Want to go left, steer left, the computer will activate the right thruster to push you left. You won't need to think it, it will happen as it can now.

The game needs to be fun, exciting, in depth game play and mysteries to solve and sites to see, getting there should be fun and easy, and not frustration. Flight mechanics have got to be fun and intuitive, not jousting in space, but more like planes in space. Realistic? Absolutely, as many have said so far in the future any company with an eye to profit and wanting huge sales would make a control system, simple to use, and for combat the most intuitive possible. Let the mechanics and computers make the precise calculations to do what the pilot wants.

Now you want to add in a lot os user options to tweak power, shields, engines by all means, but in default mode, the easier the better. Remember cars of today or the space hips of tomorrow.

Calebe

 

[Caribou]

thanks.

the poll is really for me to see how others feel about the game. I wasn't sure if people thought that the game was turning into something other than what was sold to us. so far it feels that most are happy feeling that ED is developing how they expected it.

That would be an interesting question (red) to ask directly I'm sure most do think they are getting what they bought into. I'm not one of them however, but then I seem to specialize in misinterpretation here in FD world...

BTW - I voted 4. but... I hate KISS as an acronym and as a development paradigm and certainly wouldn't say RPGs are "simple". I'd be more inclined to point the acronym at FPS's where speed is paramount and fluff would slow it to unacceptible levels....

 

[Valkyrie]

I think they can achieve that fine balance between Complex and fun

I voted for this, though in saying that I am all for making the game more complex with its systems management as sometimes there's a real appreciation for complexity in a game you're fully immersed in to. You don't want to go down a rabbit hole and find that it is puddle deep, or else it may not hold your attention as easily over time.

And given the next elite game after this could be another 10~20~30 years, I want to feel immersed in every little way possible. Mind you, there is a difference between complex and tedium.

 

[SuperG]

If the go for realism to the max. Then it would be very simple.
Current air liners have fly by wire and auto mated landings. The pilot are more for backup if there are problems.
A car that can park itself.
In the near future autonomious cars.

So a advance space craft where common joe could go as a oneman space tricker. Wander the tara and trade. Then docking with full realism and detail is just give voice command to the ships computer and it docks in very high detail and smart with the asistance of the station.

Naval modern ships well you don't need a large crew a dozen to handle a few hundred yard long vessel.

But those old first gen schips rowing and sailing need a huge crew and wel trained crew to act as one unit.

In space as a midle educated civilian. Midle trained just the nevesery licences. Would have ship that asist heavy so the average civilian could roam in space.

Then only highly trained super intelect technical and astrofisic astronauts.

This is no fiction that reality. Technology takes lot out of hand.

But it means this if the game has to simulate every aspect ever inteligent assistment. Its a huge task and a heavy one for AI programmers. Be it automated systems or crew.

Realism is actualy in a advance tech setting easy smeasy but lot more work for the devs.

 

[warbaby2]

I voted for this, though in saying that I am all for making the game more complex with its systems management as sometimes there's a real appreciation for complexity in a game you're fully immersed in to. You don't want to go down a rabbit hole and find that it is puddle deep, or else it may not hold your attention as easily over time.

And given the next elite game after this could be another 10~20~30 years, I want to feel immersed in every little way possible. Mind you, there is a difference between complex and tedium.

Agreed... coming from one of the most complex scifie games on the market right now, I'm all for complex systems, if they make sense and are fun, something EVE hasn't really managed to achieve in 10 years... combat is still the most fun and engaging activity in the game, with industry, trading and exploration reeling somewhere behind.

If E D can strike that balance of complexity and fun from the start, the they can always expand it later, since said balance is much easier to preserve once you have it, then create when you do not.