Yes the world has become rather self centered these days
Getting old I realize how naive I was when I was young. I wish I still was (both).
Hardware & Technical Computerphile: Series on AI security and unexpected behaviours with Robert Miles
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Getting old I realize how naive I was when I was young. I wish I still was (both).
My wife is constantly lamenting the general computer illiteracy of the students (grad and undergrad) she teaches.
That said, there are so many people out there than some of them are going to do something useful/significant, even if 99.99% are just going to polute the planet and beat each other up in between taking selfies.
But we're long way from that bridge. Maybe an AI could help us develop something like that.
Sure, but it doesn't need to be a general purpose AI that's sentient enough to decide to run off and do it's own thing.
Agreed. Though I kind of think that it will not be that easy to decide which AI will become sentient and which one won't. At least this decision could not be on us humans in the end.
We'll probably be dead by then, anyway.
I've (literally) "done the numbers", and I don't think human extinction is up before the end of the century (that's bad enough). However, I still consider the chances of reaching the "singularity" before 2050 pretty high. That's where AI has potential, and that's why I hope HAL will be nice and friendly. I can't see much of a reason he would be, but as Malkowich repeated once: "It's beyond my control"Agreed. Though I kind of think that it will not be that easy to decide which AI will become sentient and which one won't. At least this decision could not be on us humans in the end.
We'll probably be dead by then, anyway.
Speaking of the "devil"
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180615-can-artificial-intelligence-have-a-soul-and-religion
To those who believe they have a soul and that it will live on forever in an afterlife somewhere after they die, here's a few questions:
When, around the time of death, does the soul actually leave the body? Is it when the heart stops beating or the brain is damaged (enough?)? What about defibrillators? Does the soul leave the body, and then sometimes return? What about people who have been clinically dead for hours due to hypothermia, and then brought back to a normal life? Does the soul have a place where it waits before going to heaven, just to make sure the body is really dead?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180615-can-artificial-intelligence-have-a-soul-and-religion
To those who believe they have a soul and that it will live on forever in an afterlife somewhere after they die, here's a few questions:
When, around the time of death, does the soul actually leave the body? Is it when the heart stops beating or the brain is damaged (enough?)? What about defibrillators? Does the soul leave the body, and then sometimes return? What about people who have been clinically dead for hours due to hypothermia, and then brought back to a normal life? Does the soul have a place where it waits before going to heaven, just to make sure the body is really dead?
I feel sorry for any person who actually believes any of this.Speaking of the "devil"
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180615-can-artificial-intelligence-have-a-soul-and-religion
To those who believe they have a soul and that it will live on forever in an afterlife somewhere after they die, here's a few questions:
When, around the time of death, does the soul actually leave the body? Is it when the heart stops beating or the brain is damaged (enough?)? What about defibrillators? Does the soul leave the body, and then sometimes return? What about people who have been clinically dead for hours due to hypothermia, and then brought back to a normal life? Does the soul have a place where it waits before going to heaven, just to make sure the body is really dead?
I feel sorry for people who believe they only got this time on earth, however we are free to believe in what we want.
True! I strongly support that. Anyone also has a right to their own opinion, and they have a right to say and argue whatever they want. Sometimes having the right to your own opinion and the right to define what is "true" can be mixed up, and it's not that everyone has a right to their own truth.
However, that doesn't answer my questions? How does the soul leaving the body work?
This is my last post about this as this talk is forbidden here, but I have to say that.
Believe whatever you want, of course. BUT believing that the time on Earth you've got is the ONLY time you've got makes you enjoy every moment of it, instead of wasting it on preparations and worries. That is my main problem with Faith and co.
There is no soul. Nothing leaves or enters. The machine simply stops working and starts to decompose like all organic matter.´and if it's out of order for long enough, the damage is irreversible
To be honest, we don't know, there are many theories and if you investigate near death experiences you get different explanations from different cultures. It's a very complex discussion, and it all boils down to what you believe in.
General / Off-Topic - Come in Doctor Frankenstein your time is up...
Herr Doktor Frankenstein would be pleased with this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47960874 Pig-brains revived after being decapitated for four hours. 👽
forums.frontier.co.uk
If you're very religious your deseption is different from someone who is not religious, however you don't need to be religious to believe in we got a "soul" or "Spirit" who defines who you are. If you are religious you believe you will go to heaven or hell depending on how you lived your life, if you're spiritual your spirit will be released from you body and where it goes is relative to a lot of occursions in your life. It's not black or white.
Basically think of the body as a suit, the soul or spirit wears, when the suit is not working anymore, you leave it and a new assignment is waiting for you, what it is we don't know.
All religions, and spiritual textures describe us as immortal, not our bodies but our souls or spirit is. Death is only a transition to something else, what it will be is how you define it with your actions in the lives (yes plural) you live.
http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes
https://www.brainscape.com/blog/2015/07/afterlife-major-religions/
The thing is, you don't know that, but this is what you believe in, and I respect that, no one need to prepare for anything, if you do that you don't understand why you're here.
BTW "
We have decided to close off-topic political discussions as they appear on the forum. We believe political discussion is important, but there are other forums that are more suitable for it elsewhere on the internet. "
This is not politics, so it's allowed, and we are discussing AI so it's only natural to include this part of the discussion.
@lysan
Thanks for the link and your answer. I'll watch the video right away
I'm not a believer in any religion, but when I sit among scientist, and the religion bashing gets strong, as I wrote, my favorite question in such a case is the classical case of the first mover: Who/what "invented" the laws of nature that defined the Big Bang, or defined whatever caused it? That makes them reach for their coffee mug or creates a sudden strange interest in debating the weather
It's not that I don't understand what you mean with "the body as a suit, the soul or spirit wears", but I normally get the same reactions to my questions about the soul leaving the body, as I get when I ask for alternative explanations to the first mover. To me it does not add up.
The first mover hypothesis stems from science. After Newton, the consensus among many scientist became, that reality is somewhat like a big case of cause and effect. Apart from quantum mechanics, that is still considered true. Every event needs a cause. Nothing happens without a cause, and that cause will also have a cause, and so on. That led to the idea that you can trace cause/effect back to some sort of origin, called the first mover. Religions were quick to pick that up and point to whatever deity they believed in, but they had no proof, except for the philosophical implications of cause and effect. It could be that we live in a giant computer simulation like Sim City on steroids, running on some alien kids laptop, somewhere. Even that wouldn't make the kid the first mover, because you can always trace cause further back. Science took the knowledge and placed it in the box with unsolved cases, and never really wanted to speak about it again.
Thanks for the link and your answer. I'll watch the video right away
I'm not a believer in any religion, but when I sit among scientist, and the religion bashing gets strong, as I wrote, my favorite question in such a case is the classical case of the first mover: Who/what "invented" the laws of nature that defined the Big Bang, or defined whatever caused it? That makes them reach for their coffee mug or creates a sudden strange interest in debating the weather
It's not that I don't understand what you mean with "the body as a suit, the soul or spirit wears", but I normally get the same reactions to my questions about the soul leaving the body, as I get when I ask for alternative explanations to the first mover. To me it does not add up.
The first mover hypothesis stems from science. After Newton, the consensus among many scientist became, that reality is somewhat like a big case of cause and effect. Apart from quantum mechanics, that is still considered true. Every event needs a cause. Nothing happens without a cause, and that cause will also have a cause, and so on. That led to the idea that you can trace cause/effect back to some sort of origin, called the first mover. Religions were quick to pick that up and point to whatever deity they believed in, but they had no proof, except for the philosophical implications of cause and effect. It could be that we live in a giant computer simulation like Sim City on steroids, running on some alien kids laptop, somewhere. Even that wouldn't make the kid the first mover, because you can always trace cause further back. Science took the knowledge and placed it in the box with unsolved cases, and never really wanted to speak about it again.
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Well, we'll see how the mods see it.
My bottom line is, enjoy life. You, like you said, you don't know what comes after. Although if you read a lot of particle physics papers, you get a pretty good idea what comes after, and it doesn't include you in any form of "you" you might recognize.
@Chris Simon
I agree with you on your hypothesis of what happens when you die. One of the things that has become clear to me is that for biology to define life, a good approach is to target when it starts and when it ends. The problem is that this is becoming very fuzzy.
As I wrote, life has been considered an example of strong emergence, like consciousness, until recently. Then people like Jeremy England showed up, and I would be much surprised if he doesn't get a Nobel price soon.
I agree with you on your hypothesis of what happens when you die. One of the things that has become clear to me is that for biology to define life, a good approach is to target when it starts and when it ends. The problem is that this is becoming very fuzzy.
As I wrote, life has been considered an example of strong emergence, like consciousness, until recently. Then people like Jeremy England showed up, and I would be much surprised if he doesn't get a Nobel price soon.
When is something Intelligent? You could claim that AI is immortal, as long as it can make a backup copy, it can always reboot in a new computer, right? So if life is a simulation, we could in theory "reboot" each time we "die" in a new body, right?
I don't fear death, because it's only a transition, in that way I feel i enjoy my full freedom here on earth.
I don't fear death, because it's only a transition, in that way I feel i enjoy my full freedom here on earth.
This is one of the things having enough computational power and knowledge could bring. We know how brain works, we just don't fully understand the structure. Understanding that structure would de facto mean you could "copy" the mind of a person and upload them either into a sufficiently powerful computer or another (maybe artificially grown) brain.
I wouldn't mind that. And it could be a by-product of developing an AI either because "it" can help us with that, of simply because by that point we will have tech to do it ourselves.
Well, I used to think that death was pretty scary. Then I realized that if Chris and I are right, I wouldn't be around to experience anything, and that kind of eased the fright. On the other hand, as one of my muslim friends once said: "I thought that it was only us believers who had figured out that being religious is win-win. Even if the atheist are right we religious people will never know, but if we are right, you're up the creek"
I don't mind if people believing in an afterlife. I believe in black holes and neutron stars, even though I haven't been up close and personal with any of them, and probably never will. I must say however, that my view upon many things changed when I got my first telescope, and the true scale of reality became somewhat clear to me. Like many others who have looked in a telescope it also left me with an understanding of how infinitely small and utterly unimportant my existence is. On the other hand I find it relieving to know, that all the atoms I'm made up of, will be part of a lot of stuff that will happen in the future. That's good enough for me, having lived a pretty good life.
I don't mind if people believing in an afterlife. I believe in black holes and neutron stars, even though I haven't been up close and personal with any of them, and probably never will. I must say however, that my view upon many things changed when I got my first telescope, and the true scale of reality became somewhat clear to me. Like many others who have looked in a telescope it also left me with an understanding of how infinitely small and utterly unimportant my existence is. On the other hand I find it relieving to know, that all the atoms I'm made up of, will be part of a lot of stuff that will happen in the future. That's good enough for me, having lived a pretty good life.
I've personally played with the idea about uploading my consciousness to some sort of artificial reality ever since the first time I mounted a 1. gen VR headset in 1991. I can still see the potential, but I'm not sure how long I would really want it to last. Eternity is, like infinity, of inconceivably big scale. Hmm... Makes me wonder if eternity, like infinities, comes in different sizes, which leaves me so far OT, that I'll consider it a sign, that I have to go explore the galaxy in my spaceship
Btw. If we succeed in uploading our consciousness to VR+, some people would still have to stay behind to keep the hardware and the cooling running, but maybe we could make a deal with an AI about that...
Heheh. I don't fear death. I am only concerned with the process of dying itself, which can be quite unpleasant in some instances.Well, I used to think that death was pretty scary. Then I realized that if Chris and I are right, I wouldn't be around to experience anything, and that kind of eased the fright. On the other hand, as one of my muslim friends once said: "I thought that it was only us believers who had figured out that being religious is win-win. Even if the atheist are right we religious people will never know, but if we are right, you're up the creek"
I don't mind if people believing in an afterlife. I believe in black holes and neutron stars, even though I haven't been up close and personal with any of them, and probably never will. I must say however, that my view upon many things changed when I got my first telescope, and the true scale of reality became somewhat clear to me. Like many others who have looked in a telescope it also left me with an understanding of how infinitely small and utterly unimportant my existence is. On the other hand I find it relieving to know, that all the atoms I'm made up of, will be part of a lot of stuff that will happen in the future. That's good enough for me, having lived a pretty good life.
(Having lost my brother, recently, I am really grateful that he had it quick and painless)
There are small nice things to ease one's mind, even if he's an atheist. I love the "We are star stuff" quote, for example. Gives you the feeling of greatness, even for that little while we're alive. We do matter.
"For a few minutes standing in the darkness, I realised I could see my hand quite clearly. Something I’d noticed that I could not do, on previous nights. So I looked up, expecting to see the glow of the full moon. But the moon was no where in sight. Instead, there was a long glowing cloud, directly overhead. The Romans called it the ‘via galactica’, the road of milk. Today, we call it the Milky Way.
Seeing is only far from it. That night, years ago, I knew a small part of what’s out there … the kinds of things, the scale of things, the age of things. The violence and destruction … appalling energy … hopeless gravity … and the despair of distance. But I feel safe. Because I know my world is protected by the very distance that others fear. It’s like the universe screams in your face: “Do you know what I am, how grand I am, how old I am? Can you even comprehend what I am? What are you … compared to me?” And when you know enough Science, you can just smile and look at the universe and reply: ‘Dude, I am you.’
When I looked at the galaxy that night, I knew that the faintest twinkle of starlight was a real connection, between my comprehending eye, along a narrow beam of light, to the surface of another sun. The photons my eyes detect, the light I see, the energy in which my nerves interact … came from that star! I thought I could never touch it, yet something from it, crosses the void … and touches me. I might never have known. My eyes … saw only a tiny point of light, but my mind saw so much more. I see the invisible bursts of gamma radiation from giant stars, converted into pure energy by their own mass. The flashes that flash, from the far side of the universe, long before Earth had even formed. I can see the invisible microwave glow of the background radiation left over from the Big Bang.
I see stars drifting aimlessly … at hundreds of kilometres per second, and the space-time curving around them. I can even see millions of years into the future. That blue twinkle will blow up one day … sterilising any, nearby solar systems, in an apocalypse that makes the wrath of human gods seem pitiful, by comparison. Yet it was from such destruction … that I was formed. Stars must die … so that I can live. I … stepped out the supernova … and so did you."
"The apparatus for the 40-foot telescope was by this time so far completed that I could put the mirror into the tube and direct it to a celestial object; but having no eye-glass fixed, not being acquainted with the focal length which was to be tried, I went into the tube, and laying down near the mouth of it I held the eye-glass in my hand, and soon found the place of the focus. The object I viewed was the nebula in the belt of Orion, and I found the figure of the mirror, though far from perfect, better than I had expected. It showed four small stars in the nebula and many more. The nebula was extremely bright."
- William Herschel
- William Herschel