Confession of a shameless Mode Switcher...

[Jockey79]

Unless I'm mistaken, you're the one adding the own interpretation of what purpose an "exploit" serves.

If we follow your logic to it's conclusion there there can be NO cheats or exploits in any multiplayer game since all players can make use of the same game-mechanic.
The fact that things DO get classified as cheats and exploits, despite the fact that "everybody can use them", demonstrates the fallacy of the original assertion.

I'd suggest that a better definition of a game exploit would be "an unintended game mechanic which grants the player some advantage compared to their situation had they not used it"

For example, Bethesda games have a common "exploit" where you can tell an NPC to pick up an item, grab it at the same time they do and you both end up with the item.
So, you find one "Sword of Doom", tell your sidekick to pick it up, grab it at the same time, and you both end up with a "sword of doom".
There was one sword but now there's two.
You have gained an advantage that you wouldn't have if you hadn't made use of an exploit.

Already answered the single player game side, the game Devs can decide if you've gained an unfair advantage over the game mechanics. So yes you can use an exploit in a single player game.

Your suggested definition is very nice and well thought out, I like it.

However, we are currently working within the realms of the existing laid out definition currently, of which you need to have the advantage over the game (which Frontier is abstaining from saying) or another player. Currently, any player could do it as well - so that's even, no advantage to anyone.

As for the morality of doing it, that's another discussion.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Cheers for finding it out though. It was interesting to watch.
Did try to rep you for it, but it will not let me at this time (darn forums, hate that rep lockout).

Just checked, repping works just fine

 

[william1134]

I don't really play ED anymore as I have found that with the free time available these days, I can't really do anything in a shortish amount of time that is of any value.... sure i can spend 30 mins in super cruise jumping but it doesn't feel that I have achieved much.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Transcript;

Q: Will you be fixing the mode swapping exploit for missions?
A:
Well, er, says, uhm [player name] I believe that's [player name].
It's actually quite a difficult one.
T-to completely get rid of mode swapping would be a, I think a pretty significant change.
Er, we have made changes to the, we have overhauled the mission system, quite a lot.
But there are levels of, of change and that's, that one goes quite to the heart of the code I believe.
It's all very, it's all rather technical. We have metered missions more, there are caps for missions and you need to get more reputation with, er, minor factions to get more missions now. It is metered.It's not something we can do an awful lot more about at the moment.
It's an ongoing thing.

Whew! That's a classic. Talk much, say nothing, commit to nothing.
Course with this place being what it is I can hardly blame Sandro (or FD) for saying little and promising nothing to this crowd.

Didn't someone once post a quote here from Sandro (or someone else at FD) explicitly stating they don't consider Mode Switching an "exploit"? Not that I care much either way at this point but I am curious.

 

[Stealthie]

Whew! That's a classic. Talk much, say nothing, commit to nothing.
Course with this place being what it is I can hardly blame Sandro (or FD) for saying little and promising nothing to this crowd.

It's a common problem these days.

People are (often, quite rightly) terrified that anything they do say will be misconstrued, misinterpreted or unintended inferences will be made and, as a result, they end up being so careful to avoid saying anything that might be "spun" negatively that they don't actually say anything meaningful.

James May famously said "There only needs to be one law: don't be a c**k. If you're not being a c**k then you should be able to carry on doing whatever you're doing and if you are being a c**k you deserve to be punished for it"

That pretty-much summarises my attitude to multiplayer games too.

 

[Jockey79]

Didn't someone once post a quote here from Sandro (or someone else at FD) explicitly stating they don't consider Mode Switching an "exploit"? Not that I care much either way at this point but I am curious.

I believe that was posted to one of the S.O.G. threads back when pirates and "griefers" were claiming that being able to mode switch to avoid them was an "exploit".

 

[duckofdeath]

Here's my reason why I think people believing places like Ceos are unique for ranking up "fast".
I started a new account last week. I've decided to rank up with the Empire as they undoubtedly have the most versatile ships. I'm doing this the regular way, picking up what missions each random port I arrive to offers me. I am focusing almost entirely on the rank, so, I'm almost exclusively picking up +++ passenger missions and donation mission. I mix it up a little with the odd combat mission, exploration mission for increased cash flow and some courier missions if they seem to fit other mission destinations. I've played a total of 48 hours and 17 minutes and I'm 7% past Baron. Already a proud owner of an iClipper. During that game time, I spent one whole evening trying to figure out a legal way to complete a massacre mission against Smugglers, which I couldn't despite the disclaimers/notes not mentioning it was expected to be an illegal mission. This also includes the time flying to and from Yong Rui space every time I've upgraded ships (from Sidewinder, through the Cobra Mk III, Viper Mk III, Keelback and Asp Explorer). It also includes a day where I spent trying out Conflict Zones in my Cobra Mk III vs a Viper Mk III. Pro tip: Don't. I did manage to get my 9 kills on the mission I picked up, but it took several visits to the repair shop. Plus the usual up's and down's you get from normal game play. I have not flipped a single board, not even during the RNG imposed "droughts" I experience from time to time.

Playing the game is not as grindy as people claims it to be. Exploits like Ceos aren't as great as people wants to believe.

If you've spent seven months to get to rank 5 in the Navy, you should maybe consider looking up how to maximize your rank focused missions instead of instantly jumping to the commonly googled "exploit". Because, you're really only cheating yourself by doing that. People say Frontier haven't "nerfed" places like the one you chose to rank up at. In my humble opinion, they have. They've just done it silently, by making the missions you get everywhere else as good.
Here are my stats after 48 hours and 17 minute active game time:

 

[House0fDerp]

Honest question: Who is claiming it takes several months to get to rank 5 (while actually trying)?

Most of the mode switching seems focused on getting rank for the cutter/corvette and the mode switchers I've seen give figures of progress in matters of a few days. I've minimum efforted while watching youtube and not always bothering to get full stacks of missions and I'm making faster progress through Lt. Commander with less of a grind feeling than playing attentively and "normally".

For me that's the greatest irony, ranking became palatable when I found a way to get 10x the reward at a fraction of the interaction.

As a side effect I almost have those terminals for Quent, so I genuinely can't see the need to take longer doing something else.

 

[duckofdeath]

It's your post, you're writing those numbers, saying if you'd kept playing the game "honestly" it would take you over two years to gain access to the Corvette. I'm just clarifying that your numbers are massively exaggerated. It is not 10 times faster board flipping. Had I gone all-in just picking up +++ passengers and donations, not stopping to look at the flowers once in a while, I might had done what I did in the low 30 hours.

 

[House0fDerp]

It's your post, you're writing those numbers, saying if you'd kept playing the game "honestly" it would take you over two years to gain access to the Corvette. I'm just clarifying that your numbers are massively exaggerated. It is not 10 times faster board flipping. Had I gone all-in just picking up +++ passengers and donations, not stopping to look at the flowers once in a while, I might had done what I did in the low 30 hours.

To start, I'm not sure where I gave specific numbers personally. 2 years specifically is something I can't find I've said. Seems believable though considering the amount of time I spent ignoring the mission system in place of other gameplay motivations. Add to that the number of people who started long before I did and still aren't as far as I am I'd say those timeframes aren't exaggerated.

Beyond that, in contexts people here seems to be referring to end ranks rather than rank 5, which as I understand do expands exponentially, thus at 5 you aren't half way to 10, or possibly even close to that. and further, I'd definitely be willing to compare progression numbers once I have a greater sample, but anecdotally sothis/ceos with mode swapping is far better return on investment than anything else I've tried even without needing to cherrypick +++ missions. So yes, anecdotally it has been far faster, 10x being hyperbolic I'll grant you, but more many times more missions completed in much less time isn't really an arguable metric.

Edit: If you're referring to the op, I'd again point you back to the fact that not everyone wants to have their genitals stapled to the mission system prior to doing anything else. You did missions for ~48 hours. Congrats? I did them for maybe an hour at a time before contemplating leaving the game save the days of massacre stacking in 17 Draconis and spent a great deal of time fighting through CZs. Even with the time that took I'd pit it against normal progression to see it compared.

 

[duckofdeath]

I explained to you the other day, the ranks does not expand exponentially like Elite ranks.
They expand, but beyond Ensign up to Rear Admiral the increase levels out. As I also mentioned, I've already done the entire King rank on my original account. The last two are indeed brutal, mostly because there is no reward doing them other than the text on the right hand HUD. And when I did them, we didn't even have the luxury of a percentage meter.
Also, read my reply again. It took me 48 hours because I wasn't only doing missions. Had I focused on the rank I'd probably completed it in little over 30 hours. Maybe even less? The abundance of +++ missions is clearly a lot more common than you'd like to imagine. I probably pick up on average 3-4 +++ missions per stop I do. Sometimes I get a "goldmine" with almost ten +++ donation missions. With a bit of simple planning, like remembering not to take the ones to the 300k+ Ls cruise stations, you can save even more time on what I've done.
I'm, just saying, what you want to believe isn't facts. Faction ranking is not a years long endless grind. Playing the game, doing varied missions gets your near the same rank progress as you'd get from sitting in the main menu, not playing the game, mixed with only going ot the same CZ over and over, instead of seeing the whole bubble. Wasting, what you say yourself, extremely precious couple of hours per day on not playing a game to get to a ship that does slightly different things than the other ships your could have actually flown while ranking up.
I'm really just trying to make you realise that you could indeed rank up relatively fast while doing everything in the game, instead of just making yourself believe you're being clever by using a "known exploit". Sothis and Ceos used to be a massive exploit. It's not any more.

 

[House0fDerp]

I explained to you the other day, the ranks does not expand exponentially like Elite ranks.

I think you're confusing conversations.

They expand, but beyond Ensign up to Rear Admiral the increase levels out. As I also mentioned, I've already done the entire King rank on my original account. The last two are indeed brutal, mostly because there is no reward doing them other than the text on the right hand HUD. And when I did them, we didn't even have the luxury of a percentage meter.
Also, read my reply again. It took me 48 hours because I wasn't only doing missions. Had I focused on the rank I'd probably completed it in little over 30 hours. Maybe even less? The abundance of +++ missions is clearly a lot more common than you'd like to imagine. I probably pick up on average 3-4 +++ missions per stop I do. Sometimes I get a "goldmine" with almost ten +++ donation missions. With a bit of simple planning, like remembering not to take the ones to the 300k+ Ls cruise stations, you can save even more time on what I've done.
I'm, just saying, what you want to believe isn't facts. Faction ranking is not a years long endless grind. Playing the game, doing varied missions gets your near the same rank progress as you'd get from sitting in the main menu, not playing the game, mixed with only going ot the same CZ over and over, instead of seeing the whole bubble. Wasting, what you say yourself, extremely precious couple of hours per day on not playing a game to get to a ship that does slightly different things than the other ships your could have actually flown while ranking up.
I'm really just trying to make you realise that you could indeed rank up relatively fast while doing everything in the game, instead of just making yourself believe you're being clever by using a "known exploit". Sothis and Ceos used to be a massive exploit. It's not any more.

Already read it, 30 hours best case with optimized gameplay, extrapolating from there to what you did achieve with no mentioned major diversions and you still have a focus on the mission system because we can at best assume that a third of that time was lost to less than perfect focus on top of mission selection.

But focused play to a less than half mark isn't what most are referring to so an assumed 30 hour pure grind isn't exactly a mark that can be priased. Especially when that gets inflated by the real world play time.

For some that 30 hours is actually a month of play. I'm not aware of anyone that has 30 hour sessions, but plenty that have 1-2 hour sessions and even then not every day. So yes, 30 hours could well be a month, or worse if you don't spend 100% of you time running missions by your own numbers. Now by my numbers I'd be close to 6 hours, maybe under, per rank at lt cmdr if i bothered to pay attention to the client more, with you averaging that in theory only I'd say mode switching has the advantage.

 

[DukeIronHand]

I've played a total of 48 hours and 17 minutes and I'm 7% past Baron. Already a proud owner of an iClipper.

And it took me 15 hours.
I get your trying to be clever and the "smartest person in the room" but your not changing my mind about the whole system.
Seen it, lived it, been there. I have other issues with your WoT but I am not changing your mind and you are not changing mine so I shall not waste the time. Read...and truly understand the OP.

 

[duckofdeath]

And it took me 15 hours.
I get your trying to be clever and the "smartest person in the room" but your not changing my mind about the whole system.
Seen it, lived it, been there. I have other issues with your WoT but I am not changing your mind and you are not changing mine so I shall not waste the time. Read...and truly understand the OP.

Sorry for offending you by making it clear that the 10x time saved is a myth.

 

[duckofdeath]

I think you're confusing conversations.




Already read it, 30 hours best case with optimized gameplay, extrapolating from there to what you did achieve with no mentioned major diversions and you still have a focus on the mission system because we can at best assume that a third of that time was lost to less than perfect focus on top of mission selection.

But focused play to a less than half mark isn't what most are referring to so an assumed 30 hour pure grind isn't exactly a mark that can be priased. Especially when that gets inflated by the real world play time.

For some that 30 hours is actually a month of play. I'm not aware of anyone that has 30 hour sessions, but plenty that have 1-2 hour sessions and even then not every day. So yes, 30 hours could well be a month, or worse if you don't spend 100% of you time running missions by your own numbers. Now by my numbers I'd be close to 6 hours, maybe under, per rank at lt cmdr if i bothered to pay attention to the client more, with you averaging that in theory only I'd say mode switching has the advantage.

This is the third time I'm saying I'm picking up all sorts of missions. If you consider that a grind. Why are you even playing the game? Doing all sorts of missions is literally playing the game. I think you're so stuck in the mindset that the only game is to get the Cutter/Corvette. What will you do with it when you're there? Do what I'm doing now, or just un-install the game commending yourself for excellent board flipping?

 

[House0fDerp]

This is the third time I'm saying I'm picking up all sorts of missions.

I'm not saying you are. I contrasted your best case hypothetical against my current progress. Why you can't get that I'm not sure.

If you consider that a grind. Why are you even playing the game? Doing all sorts of missions is literally playing the game. I think you're so stuck in the mindset that the only game is to get the Cutter/Corvette. What will you do with it when you're there? Do what I'm doing now, or just un-install the game commending yourself for excellent board flipping?

Sure, that makes sense if you ignore that the rep system effectively tries to bind you to an area and, more importantly, there isn't anything in the game that needs to involve missions except rank grinds. But since both of those are true it should be obvious that many don't like mission board dictating what they do and would like to act independently, issue is the time to get rank locked ships becomes literally infinite. So yes, altering play because you wouldn't ordinarily be grinding missions makes grinding missions a grind.

I mean, it should be pretty obvious in a sandbox, but sometimes I suppose it needs spelled out.

If you didn't want to have your methods contrasted against board flipping, why did you post? If you can't take contrasting views maybe you should unplug your PC, get off the internet and commend yourself on how right the way you played was?

 

[duckofdeath]

I'm not saying you are. I contrasted your best case hypothetical against my current progress. Why you can't get that I'm not sure.



Sure, that makes sense if you ignore that the rep system effectively tries to bind you to an area and, more importantly, there isn't anything in the game that needs to involve missions except rank grinds. But since both of those are true it should be obvious that many don't like mission board dictating what they do and would like to act independently, issue is the time to get rank locked ships becomes literally infinite. So yes, altering play because you wouldn't ordinarily be grinding missions makes grinding missions a grind.

I mean, it should be pretty obvious in a sandbox, but sometimes I suppose it needs spelled out.

If you didn't want to have your methods contrasted against board flipping, why did you post? If you can't take contrasting views maybe you should unplug your PC, get off the internet and commend yourself on how right the way you played was?

You only have to go back to your high rep location every time you need a naval ascension mission. I pick the missions completely on random. There are more than enough to keep two passenger cabins busy, and fill three cabins just messes things up as you're hard pressed to get two to the same station.
Again, that "15 hour" board flipping, does that count from you owning 1,000 credits in a loaner sidey? That's where my experiment started.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Sorry for offending you by making it clear that the 10x time saved is a myth.

Offense? In a electronic forum about a video game. Hehe.
Anyway, in addition to a dozen variables present with any RNG based system you are comparing apples to oranges and trying to say both taste the same.

 

[House0fDerp]

You only have to go back to your high rep location every time you need a naval ascension mission. I pick the missions completely on random. There are more than enough to keep two passenger cabins busy, and fill three cabins just messes things up as you're hard pressed to get two to the same station.
Again, that "15 hour" board flipping, does that count from you owning 1,000 credits in a loaner sidey? That's where my experiment started.

I'm not sure if you're ignoring the effect of rep on mission selection or pretending it doesn't matter. I can only guess that latter and even then only after narrowing the mission types. As far as the board flipping I'm doing specifically, 0 cargo space and the ability to jump 9ly are all you need. A sidey without cabins could do that.

Edit: As a side note I'm not sure why we would narrow the field as far as ships or mission types is concerned. Ranking isn't limited to new players or specific mission types.

 

[duckofdeath]

I'm not sure if you're ignoring the effect of rep on mission selection or pretending it doesn't matter. I can only guess that latter and even then only after narrowing the mission types. As far as the board flipping I'm doing specifically, 0 cargo space and the ability to jump 9ly are all you need. A sidey without cabins could do that.

Edit: As a side note I'm not sure why we would narrow the field as far as ships or mission types is concerned. Ranking isn't limited to new players or specific mission types.

The limit in my comparison is pretty obvious, isn't it? Until I was in an A rated Keelback, I was gaining rank a lot slower, for the obvious reasons. With no limits on starting funds, I'd obviously start with something like an Orca and get direct access to large luxury passenger entourages as well as regular VIPs. And again. you're now arguing that I didn't do what I just did? I'm literally jumping to pretty random stations picking up what they offer. I am "restarting" the random routes if I notice I'm drifting off into systems with low Imperial faction count. It's not very complicated. Did you also already forget that I mentioned you get plenty of donation missions on every station, one or two donations is enough to get cordinal-locked missions.
I mean, seriously, the point I'm still making is, you and others are claiming that Sothis is ten times faster for ranking up than playing the game. That it would take you 12-24 months to get to a Cutter if you wouldn't be board flipping. I've just showed you current exploits aren't even twice as fast, probably a lot less than that. While you're stuck playing "log off simulator 2017", I've been to dozens of tourist sites, visited all sorts of stations, flown 6 different ships, done bounty hunting, conflict zones, trading, smuggling and everything else. Playing the game every second of those precious hours you claim you can't lose. I mean, isn't your main complaint that you don't have time enough to play the game?