Cougar being of least concern? Florida Panthers (Cougar subspecies) are very endangered!

[silverherring]

As a native Floridian I was very excited to see Cougars added to the game, since here in Florida we have a Cougar subspecies. It means more Florida esque zoo options for me! But there is one hiccup, the game shows Cougars as being in Florida but they have them marked as "Least Concern" while that is true for the over all Cougar population Florida Panthers are extremely endangered with only about 200 Edit: 50 left in the wild. They are the only East Coast subspecies and can now only be found in Central and South Florida. I would totally be cool with the "Least Concern" if they added in the facts list about the Florida Panther. Because the current attempts at saving the species is very interesting! They are bringing in Western Cougars (Mountain Lions) to breed with Florida Panthers! If we can get the Devs noticing this that would be really cool! Animals are close to my heart and my local ones even more so, so the more proper information that can be spread about them would be amazing for their conservation!

Edit: TLDR; add "fun facts" to ALL species with endangered sub species/ sub populations! In my opinion more information the merrier, and it could lead to real life effects on the conservation attempts of these localized animals.

 

[Roxxsmom]

I am guessing that the subspecies they are referring to is the most common North American variety, Felis concolor (or increasingly as Puma concolor since the late 90s) and they are referring to the cats' entire range. They are endangered in some individual states, as are the gray wolf and other species that are of "least concern" overall). The species has a very large range.

The Florida panther seems to have different species names, including Felis concolor coryi, Puma concolor couguar, and Puma concolor coryi. But in any case, they would be a separate subspecies. The South American cougar is Puma concolor concolor. Florida panthers are an extremely endangered subspecies, but they are quite a bit smaller than the cougar used in the game. Bringing in "regular" pumas to breed with them is probably a biologically controversial decision, since doing so could erase the genetic uniqueness of Florida panthers and arguably erase them as a distinct subspecies. But it may be justified, since the population of Florida panthers is so tiny they have become very inbred.

Taxonomy can definitely be a matter of scientific debate. Just ask wolf biologists.

 

[DarthQuell]

Florida panthers are no longer a separate subspecies; they are grouped together as North American cougars.

Plus, the puma we have in-game refers to the species as a whole, not 1 particular population or subspecies; if you look at the distribution map, the range is from NA all the way to the tip of Argentina

 

[ElectricMonk]

I am guessing that the subspecies they are referring to is the most common North American variety, Felis concolor (or increasingly as Puma concolor since the late 90s) and they are referring to the cats' entire range. They are endangered in some individual states, as are the gray wolf and other species that are of "least concern" overall). The species has a very large range.

The in-game cougar is not a subspecies - it is the whole species (if it was a subspecies it would have a 3-part (trinomial) scientific name, not a 2-part (binomial) name - Puma concolor.
As far as I know there are only 2 subspecies of cougar: P. concolor concolor (South America) and P. concolor cougar (North America). The Florida panther hasn’t been considered a subspecies for quite a while.

 

[NZFanatic]

If we can get the Devs noticing this that would be really cool! Animals are close to my heart and my local ones even more so, so the more proper information that can be spread about them would be amazing for their conservation!

Unforuntately, as others have said, the information you have here is incorrect. Florida panthers are not a separate subspecies, they belong to the greater North American cougar subspecies. They are a genetically significant subpopulation (like the West African lion or the Bengal and Siberian tigers) but not a separate subspecies. The in-game cougar is not supposed to represent any single subpopulation, but the entire species, covering its entire range, and as a species the correct conservation status is 'least concern'. So basically, all the information in the game is correct and there is nothing to change in this case.

 

[silverherring]

I am guessing that the subspecies they are referring to is the most common North American variety, Felis concolor (or increasingly as Puma concolor since the late 90s) and they are referring to the cats' entire range. They are endangered in some individual states, as are the gray wolf and other species that are of "least concern" overall). The species has a very large range.

The Florida panther seems to have different species names, including Felis concolor coryi, Puma concolor couguar, and Puma concolor coryi. But in any case, they would be a separate subspecies. The South American cougar is Puma concolor concolor. Florida panthers are an extremely endangered subspecies, but they are quite a bit smaller than the cougar used in the game. Bringing in "regular" pumas to breed with them is probably a biologically controversial decision, since doing so could erase the genetic uniqueness of Florida panthers and arguably erase them as a distinct subspecies. But it may be justified, since the population of Florida panthers is so tiny they have become very inbred.

Taxonomy can definitely be a matter of scientific debate. Just ask wolf biologists.

Bringing in other cougars have and have not caused drama here in Florida, for the exact reasons you say. (But it has been working which has conservationist super excited down here) I wish the game just went one step farther, and if they are going to add the area on the map and recognize Florida Panthers as apart of the larger Cougar family they need to add somewhere that certain unique subspecies of these animals are endangered. Whether thats the cougars/wolves or any other species. It could lead to real life help in the conservation of these animals, cause I feel first and foremost this game is meant to leave an impression on younger folks about the work Zoos do in order to conserve these animals. I'm lucky to know what I know about Florida Panthers but I am now sweating thinking about the other species in the game that I don't know that much about.

I am now realizing the game developers might know these things and it's just too much information to put into the game. What they've done so far is amazing but there is always room for more information and growth. I argue now that if they want to be true to conservation efforts they need to put somewhere (hint hint to the people who think everything is fine "Fun Facts" is all I'm asking for.) but that could end up being a lot of work if they want to be true to every species. Bit of a bummer. Love the information you linked btw I love learning more about animals :,,,)

 

[silverherring]

Unforuntately, as others have said, the information you have here is incorrect. Florida panthers are not a separate subspecies, they belong to the greater North American cougar subspecies. They are a genetically significant subpopulation (like the West African lion or the Bengal and Siberian tigers) but not a separate subspecies. The in-game cougar is not supposed to represent any single subpopulation, but the entire species, covering its entire range, and as a species the correct conservation status is 'least concern'. So basically, all the information in the game is correct and there is nothing to change in this case.

I'm not asking for them to change the "Least Concern" as I stated before. I'm asking if they can add facts about possible endangered sub populations or sub species, for all animals with such, not just the Florida Panther. It could help with the actual education and support on the conservation projects here in Florida and in other Countries/States that are trying to rescue their local populations/sub species.

 

[Axo]

Although I appreciate that they used the puma as a species in general so that it also represents the South American variety, I understand your point and even if they could have made a note of that information in the zoopedia as a curious fact. In addition to reporting on this unfortunate regional situation, it would be a reference to Zoo Tycoon 2, a game that several of us lovingly link to Planet Zoo

 

[Roxxsmom]

The in-game cougar is not a subspecies - it is the whole species (if it was a subspecies it would have a 3-part (trinomial) scientific name, not a 2-part (binomial) name - Puma concolor.
As far as I know there are only 2 subspecies of cougar: P. concolor concolor (South America) and P. concolor cougar (North America). The Florida panther hasn’t been considered a subspecies for quite a while.

I'll take your word for it, though there are certainly sources that still list them as a subspecies. I assumed the US fish and Wildlife site would be up to date, but clearly it is not.

I took mammalogy a long time ago, and pumas were never my specialty, so...

As for the puma in game, I assumed it was the north American subspecies, since it was released in the north America pack. Didn't notice that they had it just as the binomial.

They do get a bit confusing about differentiation between a general species designation in game versus specific subspecies, though. They have timber wolves (Canis lupus lycaon) and arctic wolves (Canis lupus arctos), for instance, but they list the timber wolf in game as simply Canis Lupus, which is the binomial name for the entire gray wolf species, which includes all those north American and Eurasian subspecies (including arctic wolves). The worldwide range they put on the species board suggests they do mean for it to be the entire species of gray wolves, not timber wolves in particular, though then I wonder why they decided to specifically introduce arctic wolves as one particular subspecies singled out as special and distinct.

How they divide gray wolves into subspecies vs populations is also divisive but as far as I know, the most conservative estimates still consider at least four different subspecies in north America alone.

 

[ElectricMonk]

I'll take your word for it, though there are certainly sources that still list them as a subspecies. I assumed the US fish and Wildlife site would be up to date, but clearly it is not.

I took mammalogy a long time ago, and pumas were never my specialty, so...

As for the puma in game, I assumed it was the north American subspecies, since it was released in the north America pack. Didn't notice that they had it just as the binomial.

They do get a bit confusing about differentiation between a general species designation in game versus specific subspecies, though. They have timber wolves (Canis lupus lycaon) and arctic wolves (Canis lupus arctos), for instance, but they list the timber wolf in game as simply Canis Lupus, which is the binomial name for the entire gray wolf species, which includes all those north American and Eurasian subspecies (including arctic wolves). The worldwide range they put on the species board suggests they do mean for it to be the entire species of gray wolves, not timber wolves in particular, though then I wonder why they decided to specifically introduce arctic wolves as one particular subspecies singled out as special and distinct.

How they divide gray wolves into subspecies vs populations is also divisive but as far as I know, the most conservative estimates still consider at least four different subspecies in north America alone.

The grey wolves are a whole other conversation and there are lots of threads about them specifically. My opinion (quite possibly a minority one) is that the in-game ‘Timber wolf’ is meant to represent temperate/taiga forest populations of the grey wolf (the forest ecotype) across both NA and Eurasia. The Arctic wolf (and the dingo) are separate in-game because they are highly morphologically and climatically (and to some extent behaviourally) distinct from the generic forest ecotype (the ‘Timber wolf’). In my view (as I say, a minority view) Timber wolf is a pretty good term, since it does not refer to a particular subspecies, but does refer to several of the subspecies of the forest ecotype.

Interesting that US fish and Wildlife refer to the Florida panther as a distinct subspecies - it may be that the recovery plan (linked to on their page) might predate their downgrade from subspecies, though I think that happened before the plan was done… alternatively it could be a way of trying to get more funding for conservation. In lots of places (not sure of the USA) it’s easier to get conservation dollars for species than subspecies, and easier for subspecies than populations. Consequently, conservation-focussed researchers have a bit of a tendency to more readily define populations as distinct subspecies or species than other researchers.

 

[NZFanatic]

The grey wolves are a whole other conversation and there are lots of threads about them specifically. My opinion (quite possibly a minority one) is that the in-game ‘Timber wolf’ is meant to represent temperate/taiga forest populations of the grey wolf (the forest ecotype) across both NA and Eurasia. The Arctic wolf (and the dingo) are separate in-game because they are highly morphologically and climatically (and to some extent behaviourally) distinct from the generic forest ecotype (the ‘Timber wolf’). In my view (as I say, a minority view) Timber wolf is a pretty good term, since it does not refer to a particular subspecies, but does refer to several of the subspecies of the forest ecotype.

Interesting that US fish and Wildlife refer to the Florida panther as a distinct subspecies - it may be that the recovery plan (linked to on their page) might predate their downgrade from subspecies, though I think that happened before the plan was done… alternatively it could be a way of trying to get more funding for conservation. In lots of places (not sure of the USA) it’s easier to get conservation dollars for species than subspecies, and easier for subspecies than populations. Consequently, conservation-focussed researchers have a bit of a tendency to more readily define populations as distinct subspecies or species than other researchers.

In 2017 it was accepted as a subpopulation of the North American cougar. The initial taxonomic change took place in 2005, though.

 

[ElectricMonk]

In 2017 it was accepted as a subpopulation of the North American cougar. The initial taxonomic change took place in 2005, though.

Ok, so that’s a bit after the plan was revised in 2008.

 

[NZFanatic]

Ok, so that’s a bit after the plan was revised in 2008.

Apparently it was still being referred to as a separate subspecies in America by a lot of organisations even after 2005 even though it was no longer taxonomically correct.

 

[DrBurrito]

I would like to add something to this discussion. No matter how Florida panthers are classified, as a separate subspecies or not, the IUCN evaluation of the entire species is separate to the evaluation of its subspecies/subpopulations. A species as a whole can be LC, while a subspecies or subpopulation can be CR.

Let's take the gray whale as an example. The species as a whole is LC:

Meanwhile the western subpopulation is EN:

Since the animal in the game uses the binomial Puma concolor, and has the distribution map of the entire species, it represents the species as a whole. Therefore the designated LC evaluation is accurate.

 

[Antimony96]

As said earlier the Florida Panther is no longer regarded as a subspecies, but as the last remaining population of cougars in the eastern United States. Ergo the LC designation is accurate but I agree that the Zoopedia could mention them.

 

[Roxxsmom]

This thread has been interesting. I'm grateful to have been updated about the subspecies status, even when it's embarrassing to be called out as wrong. It's a great example, though, to use in my classes when discussing taxonomy and how our understanding of classification and relationships change as we gain new information.

 

[leehonglocal]

Yeah, there were subspecies of cougar and it wasn't given a full subspecies name although an Asiatic black bear and even a lion in Planet Zoo had their full subspecies name. In Planet Zoo, three species were separated to their own subspecies.

 

[NZFanatic]

even a lion

Well, not really - the lion is even more specific, as it's actually a subpopulation, not a subspecies. The West African lion belongs to the Northern lion subspecies (one of only two).