Criminal Gameplay needs to be made Viable and Meaningful

Totally agree OP however FD has this horrible trend of pandering to those who cry loudest, nameley the "anti-griefer" or thye "I want to play a multiplayer game but by my rules" crowd. Piracy is dead in the water with comms and mechanics needing a serious overhaul and rework. It seems the ONLY activity that pays anything of any worth that remotley resembles criminal activity is hauling turds. Consicering we are sold the "play your own way" line, it would be nice to actually DO that.

Thing is, they aren't listening to the anti-griefer crowd. They just apply common sense by adding consequences to the game. If you don't like a dangerous and more realistic galaxy, you are the one who wants to play by his own rules.

BTW
It doesn't make any sense to agree with OP (totally) and than complain about consequences. I'd guess you didn't read OP at all but just replied to the thread title.
 
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Didn't read the OP as he lost me right at the beginning. New to Elite? or just slow to understand?

Nah. I definitely get where the OP's coming from. Basically I'm law abiding in game but count me in.

Firstly, I do think post #2 is wise .. being a pirate IS going to be difficult but that's why there's a ton of kudos to anyone who plays the route, start to finish. In other words someone who doesn't rank up as a trader, only to turn round and 'become a pirate' (that's basically a kind of ganking, in a way).

The route is open to extent that you can start out as a small time crook, smuggling narcs and so on, working your way up to homicide for cargo, if you can do it. Obviously some nefarious missions too but quite linear and slow going if you compare it to the target opportunities available to a bounty hunting combat pilot harvesting in a RES.

I'd put forward the idea of some form of pirate's mechanic that pays you for every security ship you can take out. For a start.

+1
 
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So I say Elite needs to take one from Star Citizen's playbook...

You mean the game which doesn't exist and might as well never exist? Well, except for $50 demo version with limited game play, designed to shaft the fans and milk their money whilst offering something that 10th rate game development studio would be able to put out there for free?

Apart from that, I'm totally happy with FD enriching this part of the game. Let's start with the system of consequences and see how that works.
 
Let's start with the system of consequences and see how that works.

Trouble (for me) is it's all stick .. and if ED get's too much of a reputation for being too care bear, then that could stick, permanently too. It might even help the situaion if people who want to play on the wrong side of the law are given at least some cannon fodder.

Spitballing; An upside down RES area. Enter and security are shooting at pirates as per usual, only here your only legitimate targets are the security ships. Firing on them earns you ONE murder bounty (so murderball doesn't become a money making exploit, through selling your bounty to other players) and each security ship kill gives you a payout (with pirate assist if that's possible), somewhere in line with a regular, bounty per ship found in a regular RES?
 
Trouble (for me) is it's all stick .. and if ED get's too much of a reputation for being too care bear, then that could stick, permanently too. It might even help the situaion if people who want to play on the wrong side of the law are given at least some cannon fodder.

Spitballing; An upside down RES area. Enter and security are shooting at pirates as per usual, only here your only legitimate targets are the security ships. Firing on them earns you ONE murder bounty (so murderball doesn't become a money making exploit, through selling your bounty to other players) and each security ship kill gives you a payout (with pirate assist if that's possible), somewhere in line with a regular, bounty per ship found in a regular RES?

The very concept of RES and CZ where NPCs just come to die needs to go away, let's not try and shoehorn it into anything else please.
 
Two lines I reckon plus one look up.

The very concept of RES and CZ where NPCs just come to die needs to go away, let's not try and shoehorn it into anything else please.

Agree to an extent. Only problem for me is a little predictable still. Small issue though, fun inside and with tip offs added - the mechanics work well already but ideally skirmishes will end up being a shade more transient.
 
Didn't read the OP as he lost me right at the beginning. New to Elite? or just slow to understand?

If you're so obsessed with being anti-progress with Elite's development that the very idea of "Elite is advertised as a cutthroat galaxy, not a hugbox" causes you to instantly ignore an entire page and many replies of suggestions on how to improve every aspect of the game with much needed depth and meaning by focusing on providing one EXTREMELY ignored side of things with an overhaul, then don't even bother posting here.
 
What, you want an itemized list? I can't/don't want to go through everything because some of what you suggest completely ignores how some core game mechanics work, and some is just redundant. Just saying that I don't object to the concept.

Fine then:
Stations - Have you been to a station controlled by an anarchy minor faction? No-fire zone doesn't seem to exist. At least I never see the thing pop up on the info part in the top right corner. Never tried firing weapons, but you can figure that one out for yourself.

You then just about describe the rep system for minor factions, congrats, FD beat you to it. Or you did a horrible job of explaining your "idea."

Missions - already there. They are called massacre missions. Maybe you missed the memo. Some are called assassinations. I often assassinate pirate lords when I want a specific bounty hunting target. There are surface ones too where you destroy infrastructure. Don't know what they are called, but they are there.

And you show an overall lack of understanind of how its the minor factions that actually operate systems and post bounties and track crimes. You can be wanted by the fuel rat mischief, but be just fine with the earth defense fleet (just throwing two I know off the top of my head). Kinda like how in skyrim, you could have a bounty in Markarth and be just fine in Riften. Jurisdiction is key, not security level necessarily.

And don't get me started on how I am not sure where one idea ends and one begins in your OP. Try a bulleted list or something and don't have one idea immediately bleed into another.

Happy now? I read your OP the first time around, but your "suggestions" are either ignorant of how ED works, or simply redundant.

Stations are irrelevant, I'm not talking about minor factions, i'm talking about a new system entirely.

Massacre Missions are not illegal and they are just bounty hunting missions in CZs. Assassination missions are just bounty hunting missions for one guy. Illegal assassination missions are just assassionations with a bounty.

I'm not talking about minor factions, I'm talking about an entirely new system.

Why is it that I've gotten many dozens of rep for my OP and many dozens more people that have responded all know exactly what I mean and agree with me, and even those that try hard to argue because they think I'm trying to say "give PvPers no consequences" when in fact I'm not even admit that everything I have said is a good idea and criminal gameplay needs a major overhaul, and yet you don't understand?

It doesn't matter if you think everything is find and dandy. All criminal activities in the game are just doing the exact same thing but with a bounty, random murder of another player, or piracy which is the single most inefficient means of making money to the point where depending on the ship you're using, reload and restock ends up costing more than the cargo you're selling, resulting in a net loss. This needs to change. End of story.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Thing is, they aren't listening to the anti-griefer crowd. They just apply common sense by adding consequences to the game. If you don't like a dangerous and more realistic galaxy, you are the one who wants to play by his own rules.

BTW
It doesn't make any sense to agree with OP (totally) and than complain about consequences. I'd guess you didn't read OP at all but just replied to the thread title.

There should be consequences. However those consequences shouldnt be so ridiculous or stringent as to force non-consensual pvp players out of the game, which is what this karma system is being championed as by the usual suspects.
 
There should be consequences. However those consequences shouldnt be so ridiculous or stringent as to force non-consensual pvp players out of the game, which is what this karma system is being championed as by the usual suspects.

Consequences should be meaningful. Throwing bounties at people just means that those with billions of credits which the majority of high tier PvPers in fact do will live consequence free. Trying to counter that by nerfing in to the ground anything that makes lots of credits just makes the grind worse for everybody.

Actual security responses from cops that can actually hurt you, denial of docking privileges, forcing criminals to stick to lowsec and anarchy systems, having large bounties and being in open play putting you on a galactic most wanted list and making it easier to track you, stuff like that.

But, the rewards also need to be tempting. Make people want to break the law and risk losing it all and ruining their reputation in order to go after big rewards and get in good with crime rings that offer special services and the like.

As I've said before, criminal gameplay should be High Risk, High Reward.

As it currently is, it's High Risk, High Punishment. That needs to change.
 
Exactly my point though, none of it is profitable, all of it is difficult, and the punishments far outweigh any benefit that comes of it.
So what you're upset about is the truth in the old saying that "crime doesn't pay"? Seriously?

Why should FDev make crime easy? If you look at actual crime and criminals they seldom get rich as the vast majority end up in jail or are killed by their intended victims, police, or more often other criminals. Even belonging to a syndicate, mafia, or cartel isn't a way to make it less risky. In fact in a lot of ways it makes it more risky. An in game career in crime should be like actual crime, hard and with high risk. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
 
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So what you're upset about is the truth in the old saying that "crime doesn't pay"? Seriously?

Why should FDev make crime easy? If you look at actual crime and criminals they seldom get rich as the vast majority end up in jail or are killed by their intended victims, police, or more often other criminals. Even belonging to a syndicate, mafia, or cartel isn't a way to make it less risky. In fact in a lot of ways it makes it more risky. An in game career in crime should be like actual crime, hard and with high risk. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Do you people SERIOUSLY not have reading comprehension?

I have said repeatedly that crime should be HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD.

I didn't say make it easy, I said make the potential rewards for being a career criminal tempting enough to risk the consequences. Because, I'm sorry buddy, but THIS IS A VIDEO GAME. Do you whine at Bethesda and tell them "excuse you why is playing a Thief character in Skyrim so profitable? Don't you know that in real life crime doesn't pay?". And actually that wouldn't even work in real life. Because crime is literally a multi trillion dollar a yer international venture. Drug cartels, weapon trafficking, warlords, intelligence leaking, hitmen, bootlegging, smuggling, counterfeiting, it all pays. The issue is that the people who participate in those crimes risk their lives and their freedom every second of every day, but they do it because the potential rewards are worth it.

I want MEANING in this game. DEPTH. I want the slogan "blaze your own trail" to actually mean something in this game. All methods of play should be viable instead of this endless trading grind fest or hunting for the next mission to exploit.

Not to mention, actually read what I suggested in my OP and the many responses that have been made since and the discussions and you'll see how providing crime with context, meaning, depth, and rewards will benefit every aspect of the game in terms of BGS and player interaction in the bubble.


 
Do you people SERIOUSLY not have reading comprehension?

I have said repeatedly that crime should be HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD.

I didn't say make it easy, I said make the potential rewards for being a career criminal tempting enough to risk the consequences. Because, I'm sorry buddy, but THIS IS A VIDEO GAME. Do you whine at Bethesda and tell them "excuse you why is playing a Thief character in Skyrim so profitable? Don't you know that in real life crime doesn't pay?". And actually that wouldn't even work in real life. Because crime is literally a multi trillion dollar a yer international venture. Drug cartels, weapon trafficking, warlords, intelligence leaking, hitmen, bootlegging, smuggling, counterfeiting, it all pays. The issue is that the people who participate in those crimes risk their lives and their freedom every second of every day, but they do it because the potential rewards are worth it.

I want MEANING in this game. DEPTH. I want the slogan "blaze your own trail" to actually mean something in this game. All methods of play should be viable instead of this endless trading grind fest or hunting for the next mission to exploit.

Not to mention, actually read what I suggested in my OP and the many responses that have been made since and the discussions and you'll see how providing crime with context, meaning, depth, and rewards will benefit every aspect of the game in terms of BGS and player interaction in the bubble.



Someone said the truth about crimes in this game, rep+ people are to naive these days...

It's even hard to make a life as acriminal in this game cause there's not much you can actually do xD
 
Illegal/assymetrical PVP doesn't need to be rewarded or encouraged, because it is it's own reward. The fact that people continue to interdict and blow up Harmless sidewinders and trade vessels, and do so in sufficient numbers as to strike fear/annoyance/rage into the hearts of the community at large; is all you need to know.


The demand for murderhobos, pirates, griefers, and Emergent Content delivery personnel is already being more than met. For *some* reason, even with all the "discouragement", lack of incentives, lack of rewards, etc; *somehow* people manage to soldier on and keep blowing up unshielded traders, new player ships, and unmanned ships parked on planetary surfaces.


I don't know how or why these people keep doing what they do, but clearly there is something about this activity that brings them joy, and *keeps* bringing them joy. So the game must already be balanced around this activity pretty well.


It is weird though, isn't it? So few in-game rewards, such a lack of incentives; and yet, unlike PowerPlay, multicrew, and CQC; there has never been a shortage of willing and eager participants in this activity. Almost makes you wonder if the reward has nothing to do with the game and is somehow special to the type of person who participates in it? But no, that's ridiculous-there is no correlation between the way people behave towards other humans online, and how they behave in real life.


Having ruled that out, the only logical conclusion is that the game already provides sufficient incentives and rewards to encourage criminal pvp, because as we know, there is nothing notably different about the psychology of the criminal PvPer, which means the in-game incentives *must* already be motivating their behavior.
 
Illegal/assymetrical PVP doesn't need to be rewarded or encouraged, because it is it's own reward. The fact that people continue to interdict and blow up Harmless sidewinders and trade vessels, and do so in sufficient numbers as to strike fear/annoyance/rage into the hearts of the community at large; is all you need to know.


The demand for murderhobos, pirates, griefers, and Emergent Content delivery personnel is already being more than met. For *some* reason, even with all the "discouragement", lack of incentives, lack of rewards, etc; *somehow* people manage to soldier on and keep blowing up unshielded traders, new player ships, and unmanned ships parked on planetary surfaces.


I don't know how or why these people keep doing what they do, but clearly there is something about this activity that brings them joy, and *keeps* bringing them joy. So the game must already be balanced around this activity pretty well.


It is weird though, isn't it? So few in-game rewards, such a lack of incentives; and yet, unlike PowerPlay, multicrew, and CQC; there has never been a shortage of willing and eager participants in this activity. Almost makes you wonder if the reward has nothing to do with the game and is somehow special to the type of person who participates in it? But no, that's ridiculous-there is no correlation between the way people behave towards other humans online, and how they behave in real life.


Having ruled that out, the only logical conclusion is that the game already provides sufficient incentives and rewards to encourage criminal pvp, because as we know, there is nothing notably different about the psychology of the criminal PvPer, which means the in-game incentives *must* already be motivating their behavior.

Yet another person who saw "criminal gameplay needs meaning" and thought "this person is suggesting make PvP consequence free".

Please read threads before you respond, for christ's sake
 
Throwing bounties at people just means that those with billions of credits which the majority of high tier PvPers in fact do will live consequence free. Trying to counter that by nerfing in to the ground anything that makes lots of credits just makes the grind worse for everybody.

More a case for me that a New Save can progress something like as quickly as any other who's under the law and see variety in doing so. HAVE to say though you DO need a standard market BEFORE you can add a hookey one .. as hookey is by nature less logical and not great to build in. Always bound to be a secondary 'mechanic' then, with inevitably at least some delay whether the goal is parity or not .. but yes to keeping the eye on, for 100% sure.
 
I've been watching this thread since its inception and I'd like to put my two cents in by saying the following:

I absolutely agree with the OP in almost every way - Criminal game play should be a legitimate way to "enjoy" the game with criminal specific (and of course, legal specific) exclusive content. Players should be allowed the ability to flip flop between these styles of play (a rogue who decides to go straight, or law abiding citizen who goes dark), and not by flipping a switch between "pirate mode" and "trade mode". Your actions should indicate your career, and the more actions you take towards a specific cause, the better you will be known among people as an advocate of that cause.

The only point of potential disagreement I would have with the OP is the notion of "high reward". Not that I disagree that it should be high reward - it definitely must be high reward - I just don't want those rewards to be limited to credits. Any type of credit-bound game play will get stale when people have billions to splurge. We need to give more depth.

I feel we can't really discuss this without going a bit into the PVP component of the game. A long time ago, I proposed a "fix" for the crime system in the game, because in my opinion, all "mindless pvp" as I like to call it stems from a sense of boredom and a desire for more action packed game play. It is due to this fact that people kill without mercy, just for laughs. Most "PvPers" aren't interested in fair fights of equal skill and instead opt to ambush or gank people who are easy prey.

The proposal I outlined on these forums that I refer to was to fix the entire pyramid of PvP (as I saw it, at least) from the ground up. This meant you needed to enhance trade first (to better populate Open), which would then feed into enhanced piracy, which would ultimately feed into enhanced bounty hunting.

This might not seem so connected to some of the readers of this post, but please stay with me for a little while longer. My idea is as follows:

Every "profession" gets a dedicated progress bar for the various types of game play that you can have in Elite. The Pilot's Federation is the governing body of these professions, and they essentially work as ranks within ranks split between trading, exploration and combat - Instead of giving you ranks as we know them, a higher progress bar gives you reputation among the people within that circle and the higher you go the more renowned you become as a professional of that type of game play. Some of these can be mutually exclusive for lore reasons like, for example, trade and piracy.

Allow me to get specific.

I picture the piracy progression bar to scale up by ton of stolen commodity. This breaks the idea of "useless" cargo being pirated, because 1 ton of fish is just as profitable as 1 ton of gold since we aren't linking it to credits, but rather to reputation among the piracy circles. If you steal a specific number of tonnage, you get access to pirate-specific perks. Decals, paint jobs, and more "black markets" to conduct your shady business. Eventually you unlock the Elite version of a centralized piracy hub. An asteroid base that nobody can find unless invited to. This base provides specific perks, similar to how Founders world works now.

You build a reputation as a great enough pirate, and that will land you on the boards of the bounty hunters...

For the bounty hunters, these guys abide by the law and increase their reputation by killing wanted individuals, NPCs or players. They get to work with the various law enforcement agencies of various systems and super powers to get bounty-hunter specific missions, with good pay outs and similar rewards to the piracy idea above. Most importantly, they get access to the "Hunters Board" which is a specialized version of the mission board system exclusive to the most notable bounty hunters in the galaxy. This board gives them mission spawns to assassinate the most notable pirates in the galaxy, for a huge bounty pay out. The mission gives clues as to the last known location of various pirate lords (who are actually players) and that data only updates when that pirate gets scanned. Emergent game play.

For trading, you can earn enough reputation that you get a notification when specific systems go into negative states (famine/outbreak, etc) like some sort of "help be Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope" type message that offers massive payouts for these guys if they help those systems in a timely manner. This of course is also fed to the pirates, who target those systems more, which then feeds into the hunters, who go to preserve the peace.

For exploration, you can have different subsections of deep space explorers, with varying mission types between passenger missions, anomaly discovery, or material research. These guys essentially choose branches of exploration they enjoy, getting heads up messages about randomized derelict ships that lead to more discoveries and puzzles to solve, or a specific request to go map out a particular region of space.

The possibilities are almost endless. All factions get decals and paint jobs and other in game perks that allow them to fly the colors of their trade.

Crime and Punishment must be more heavily incorporated into the game to keep Elite relevant and open more possibilities. With that comes harsher punishment systems for people who just want to be murderers. It's perfectly acceptable game play, but the consequences are severe in game and not credit related at all. Things like stopping them from docking at all high/medium security large stations would be really cool. Feeding their data as murderers into the bounty board I mentioned earlier would also be super fun for both hunter and hunted.

All of this stems from the same core issue that the game has: We need more specific avenues of game play. Blazing our own path doesn't really mean much if all paths simply lead to more credits.
 
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Do you people SERIOUSLY not have reading comprehension?

I have said repeatedly that crime should be HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD.

I didn't say make it easy, I said make the potential rewards for being a career criminal tempting enough to risk the consequences. Because, I'm sorry buddy, but THIS IS A VIDEO GAME. Do you whine at Bethesda and tell them "excuse you why is playing a Thief character in Skyrim so profitable? Don't you know that in real life crime doesn't pay?". And actually that wouldn't even work in real life. Because crime is literally a multi trillion dollar a yer international venture. Drug cartels, weapon trafficking, warlords, intelligence leaking, hitmen, bootlegging, smuggling, counterfeiting, it all pays. The issue is that the people who participate in those crimes risk their lives and their freedom every second of every day, but they do it because the potential rewards are worth it.

I want MEANING in this game. DEPTH. I want the slogan "blaze your own trail" to actually mean something in this game. All methods of play should be viable instead of this endless trading grind fest or hunting for the next mission to exploit.

Not to mention, actually read what I suggested in my OP and the many responses that have been made since and the discussions and you'll see how providing crime with context, meaning, depth, and rewards will benefit every aspect of the game in terms of BGS and player interaction in the bubble.



Easy turbo.

I agree that it should be a viable path in the game. However, I disagree that it should be made equal to the legal paths in terms of profitability. The punishment and risks should ALWAYS outweigh the reward when it comes to being a criminal. The thrill of the crime is part of the juice, part of the lifestyle/career path. You can't have a meaningful crime mechanic without severe consequences and you can't have meaningful governmental mechanics without having deterrents to crime. Now, in game the threat of being incarcerated as a consequence/deterrent isn't a viable mechanic so low profit margin becomes the trade off.

I can see where higher reward is perhaps a viable argument for gameplay but the penalties still need to be harsh or you end up with GTA in space. The current system sucks and is too light on criminals. You want the death sentence in 12 systems? Cool, but expect to only be able to move freely in anarchy systems and even then you'll have Bounty Hunters all over you. You enter a system with security because the job reward is high? Cool, but now you need to be slick because you can't dock and will be hounded by cops, the military, and bounty hunters if you're scanned.

Organized crime being big business is true but a moot point when you consider that organized crime is a pyramid scheme. The guys taking the biggest risks, meaning the guys doing the actual acts in everything you listed out, are getting paid the least. Its the fat cat at the top of the pyramid who's getting rich not the guys doing the dirty work. The guys doing the work have the same "get rich and be your own boss" carrot dangled in front of them that the Herbalifes and MaryKays use on their people. Until there's a mechanic in game that allows us to replicate this you're basically stuck being the little fish.
 
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