PvP Defence/tactics against engineered PVP rail-guns

[CMDR Cknarf]

Fixed hitscan is an absolute nightmare to defend against, assuming your opponent knows how to use it.

I try to start banks just before the pass on a joust, so maybe I can get at least most of a bank off before they hit me again.

It works pretty often, but I’m on the Xbox side of things, where most can’t aim rails to save their life lol.

Most.

For module damage, you pretty much just gotta equip enough MRPs and tank it. If you can get away with an armored plant, go for it.

I think my Python’s plant has around 320 integrity, and that’s before you take module reinforcements into play.

 

[macpeep]

How does breaking target lock work in practice? Obviously popping a heat sink will cause the heat to drop and that causes target lock to be broken. And silent running has a similar effect for the same reason. But I’m looking for more specifics on target lock distance vs. heat output, ship size, the opponent’s sensor max distance, etc. With that many variables the answer is of course some type of ”it depends”. So I guess I’m asking more generally if it makes a lot of sense trying to fit and engineer a ship with low heat output or if the benefit (if there even is any) is too small to matter in practice.

So e.g. an Anaconda with G5 dirty drives, boosting and firing beam lasers on one end of the spectrum. And on the other and a Cobra with G5 clean drives, not firing, not boosting, and overall a fairly low heat signature. Are those going to have meaningfully different target lock distances for an opponent with a good G5 long range sensor? Like e.g. 12 vs 3 km? Or is it more like 12 vs 10 km?

Any thoughts?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

How does breaking target lock work in practice? Obviously popping a heat sink will cause the heat to drop and that causes target lock to be broken. And silent running has a similar effect for the same reason. But I’m looking for more specifics on target lock distance vs. heat output, ship size, the opponent’s sensor max distance, etc. With that many variables the answer is of course some type of ”it depends”. So I guess I’m asking more generally if it makes a lot of sense trying to fit and engineer a ship with low heat output or if the benefit (if there even is any) is too small to matter in practice.

So e.g. an Anaconda with G5 dirty drives, boosting and firing beam lasers on one end of the spectrum. And on the other and a Cobra with G5 clean drives, not firing, not boosting, and overall a fairly low heat signature. Are those going to have meaningfully different target lock distances for an opponent with a good G5 long range sensor? Like e.g. 12 vs 3 km? Or is it more like 12 vs 10 km?

Any thoughts?

Are you talking about TLB?
For that you just need to land a shot but the timer is really short now.


Heat and proximity make a difference.
Once you fire you auto resolve and your opponent can even target modules.

You might find this helpful:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-g4Fv_PwY

 

[quelcertoleo]

“Silent” or cold builds have a big problem now.
Night Vision.

You may not lock your missiles or your gimballed weapons but you can aim manually.

 

[macpeep]

Are you talking about TLB?
For that you just need to land a shot but the timer is really short now.


Heat and proximity make a difference.
Once you fire you auto resolve and your opponent can even target modules.

You might find this helpful:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-g4Fv_PwY

Only talking about passive measures.

Thanks for the video. That’s very interesting. I am basically looking for specifics on how useful cold running is in practice. I know the theory. Just not how well it actually works and whether it makes any meaningful difference.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Only talking about passive measures.

Thanks for the video. That’s very interesting. I am basically looking for specifics on how useful cold running is in practice. I know the theory. Just not how well it actually works and whether it makes any meaningful difference.

Just being cold won't do much.
You'd have to get really cold and even then it's still easy to see you, esp w night vision.
Too many counters too.
I use emissive often for example.

 

[macpeep]

Just being cold won't do much.
You'd have to get really cold and even then it's still easy to see you, esp w night vision.
Too many counters too.
I use emissive often for example.

Whether you are seen isn’t the question. The question is target lock, which in turn gives you a HUD pipper that shows computed lead, which allows you to hit with fixed weapons. And of course without target lock turrets and gimbals will revert to being fixed weapons. Without the opponent getting target lock on you the chance of being hit decreases substantially.

At a distance of 100 meters you will always have target lock. At a distance of 15 km you will never have it. Somewhere in between you will acquire it and when, exactly, is a function of things like distance, heat signature, target size, sensor range, etc. The interesting part is what this function looks like. E.g. a Cobra with 30% heat vs. a G5 long range sensor might result in target lock at 3 km. With 60% heat it’s perhaps 8 km. If that’s the reality then certain tactics work that don’t work if the distance is e.g. 5 km both with 30% and 60%.

This is what I’m trying to figure out. I’d be quite surprised if there isn’t hard data on this.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Someone who is consistent with fixed hitscan, and is very situationally aware is likely going to hit you whether you’re visible or not. Even before nightvision, seeing a cold/silent running ship simply wasn’t that difficult for an experienced player.

It might make their weapon convergence go a little funny, especially on ships like the Mamba, where some hardpoints are spread out a fair distance, but if they can point at you, chances are, they’re gonna hit you.

Of course, silent/cold running is more effective against gimbals, that require a lock to perform as intended. It also might take away the lead reticle for fixed plasmas, cannons, frags, etc, forcing the attacker to ‘eyeball it’. While this can be done, it’s significantly more difficult to do than simply pointing a rail or laser at someone.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I believe 20% heat or lower requires people to be very close to you to be visible.

I think assuming basic sensors, a silent-running ship is automatically visible within 500m or so. Same with a ship at 0% heat

If you’re just wanting to escape, you can just submit, dump heat sinks, and high wake most of the time, assuming you don’t just fly in a straight line.

I fly an incredibly soft (but fast) T6 as a bubble taxi, and dumping sinks has gotten me out of 99% of trouble. I’ve only died a couple times when being cocky/talking trash in local, instead of focusing on escape lol.

 

[jasonbarron]

1) stay out of open.

2) start your menu log as soon as interdiction starts. once logged out either block the player before logging back in (doesn't works if they're friends with other players who are your friends) or switch to PG or solo.

Soft core cheating, Turd. Might be within the rules technically speaking, but advising a player to menu log under these circumstances is about as attractive as puking in someone else's mouth.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Soft core cheating, Turd. Might be within the rules technically speaking, but advising a player to menu log under these circumstances is about as attractive as puking in someone else's mouth.

rule #34

....and as I said this thread wasn't in the pvp forum when I posted.

 

[jasonbarron]

rule #34

....and as I said this thread wasn't in the pvp forum when I posted.

I don't care where it was posted initially. Lame in any sub.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I don't care where it was posted initially. Lame in any sub.

since FD killed board flipping the amount of time I've spent in open is zero. I think the dedicated mission server has all but eliminated players accidentally ending up in open and having to menu log.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Yeah, man, this is a thread asking for advice.

Beyond “Don’t play open” and “lol just log out bro”

That is literally the most useless thing you could possibly post in threads like these.

Almost as useless as back and forthing...

Which I am now engaged in.

GG community.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Whether you are seen isn’t the question. The question is target lock, which in turn gives you a HUD pipper that shows computed lead, which allows you to hit with fixed weapons. And of course without target lock turrets and gimbals will revert to being fixed weapons. Without the opponent getting target lock on you the chance of being hit decreases substantially.

At a distance of 100 meters you will always have target lock. At a distance of 15 km you will never have it. Somewhere in between you will acquire it and when, exactly, is a function of things like distance, heat signature, target size, sensor range, etc. The interesting part is what this function looks like. E.g. a Cobra with 30% heat vs. a G5 long range sensor might result in target lock at 3 km. With 60% heat it’s perhaps 8 km. If that’s the reality then certain tactics work that don’t work if the distance is e.g. 5 km both with 30% and 60%.

This is what I’m trying to figure out. I’d be quite surprised if there isn’t hard data on this.

The context of thread is rail guns, so simpy being able to see you can be enough, that is the point.

Rail guns are fixed and hitscan, and don't have a lead.

 

[rhiz]

Hi Rhiz,

I'm one of the two guys in the clash. I must say we had loads of fun. I dropped you a message through Inara but probably you did not get it.
First of all, compliments for flying a T-9 in open and not logging. Second, compliments for flying two condas into battle "just for kicks" and never logging.
With more commanders like you this game would be a blast, but hey, we have all those "don't fly in open" and "do menu log". Will not bait those.

Anyway, you can review some of your mistakes here:

mrvitoriusbig_quelcertoleo_vs_Rhiz78

Watch "mrvitoriusbig_quelcertoleo_vs_Rhiz78" on Streamable.

streamable.com

First things first.
I guess you are running efficient beams, just don't, they are worthless, especially on big ships that can't simply keep inside the 0.6km falloff. To me it was just a matter of boosting a couple of times and your beams would become just a tick on my shields.
Second, keep an eye on the scanner, my wingie was just laying mines around everywhere and I was trying to joust you back and forth to those places.
And you fell into the trap, the rest is history

Final note, fix those power priorities, you cannot afford to lose thrusters that easily, use all 5 power priorities, "they are free" (I quote a friend commander here)

But again, kudos for not logging on neither of our three(!) fights.

And next time, stop that T-9 and follow instructions, it is cheaper

o? cmdr
? is the hook

Hi Rhiz,

I'm one of the two guys in the clash. I must say we had loads of fun. I dropped you a message through Inara but probably you did not get it.
First of all, compliments for flying a T-9 in open and not logging. Second, compliments for flying two condas into battle "just for kicks" and never logging.
With more commanders like you this game would be a blast, but hey, we have all those "don't fly in open" and "do menu log". Will not bait those.

Anyway, you can review some of your mistakes here:

mrvitoriusbig_quelcertoleo_vs_Rhiz78

Watch "mrvitoriusbig_quelcertoleo_vs_Rhiz78" on Streamable.

streamable.com

First things first.
I guess you are running efficient beams, just don't, they are worthless, especially on big ships that can't simply keep inside the 0.6km falloff. To me it was just a matter of boosting a couple of times and your beams would become just a tick on my shields.
Second, keep an eye on the scanner, my wingie was just laying mines around everywhere and I was trying to joust you back and forth to those places.
And you fell into the trap, the rest is history

Final note, fix those power priorities, you cannot afford to lose thrusters that easily, use all 5 power priorities, "they are free" (I quote a friend commander here)

But again, kudos for not logging on neither of our three(!) fights.

And next time, stop that T-9 and follow instructions, it is cheaper

o? cmdr
? is the hook

Hi CMDR,

Great to have you on the thread! It certainly helps to clear things up for me. Obviously, PVP brings a whole host of considerations that I've simply never faced in PVE.

Yeah, I knew that the Beams were an issue - I just couldn't keep you within range. So it was the mines! My situational awareness could use some work.

Is that video stream still working - I can't seem to play it. It'll be great to see it unfold from your perspective.

Yeah, great fun - albeit expensive. I just wish I'd performed a bit better.

I'm not one to submit, even if common sense suggests that I should. Thankfully, I'm a better hauler/trader than I am a combat pilot, so I can afford to be reckless.

 

[quelcertoleo]

Hi CMDR,

Great to have you on the thread! It certainly helps to clear things up for me. Obviously, PVP brings a whole host of considerations that I've simply never faced in PVE.

I went through the same process. When I started doing some PVP piracy and occasional PVP fights I had really to rethink all my ideas about shields, shield boosters, hull reinforcement, module reinforcements, power priorities and finally weapons. A massive re-engineering of all my ships.
There many discords groups out there that you can check, first that comes to my mind is the GCI (Galactic Combat Initiative).
It’s a discord like many others, some good people, some less good, some plain idiots.
But you will find good info there.

Is that video stream still working - I can't seem to play it. It'll be great to see it unfold from your perspective.

Still working for me.

Yeah, great fun - albeit expensive.

Well, one T9 and two condas. That’s approximately 50mln, just 30 opals would do the trick.
Legit opals I mean

Happy mining and happy pvp’ing cmdr.

O?

 

[Achilles7]

....use all 5 power priorities, "they are free" (I quote a friend commander here)

Please refrain from furnishing Frontier with ideas!

Footnote - As someone who has recently returned to Elite after a long hiatus & jumped straight back in to some PvP after one 10 minute visit to a HazRES, without being too sure of my bindings or able to find my headphones (no sound, it turns out, is surprisingly disconcerting during combat)...I'd like to say this thread has been a very edifying read as a recap. Kudos to all - or most, anyway...you really can't polish a turd, can you?! - contributors.

Oh yeah - quick question - where tf are the CGs? This was always my go-to gameplay, hence - as a casual player - finding a few fights proved to be a time-wasting chore, to say the least!

 

[quelcertoleo]

Please refrain from furnishing Frontier with ideas!

Footnote - As someone who has recently returned to Elite after a long hiatus & jumped straight back in to some PvP after one 10 minute visit to a HazRES, without being too sure of my bindings or able to find my headphones (no sound, it turns out, is surprisingly disconcerting during combat)...I'd like to say this thread has been a very edifying read as a recap. Kudos to all - or most, anyway...you really can't polish a turd, can you?! - contributors.

Oh yeah - quick question - where tf are the CGs? This was always my go-to gameplay, hence - as a casual player - finding a few fights proved to be a time-wasting chore, to say the least!

CGs were dropped and are now a new thing that will last 1 month, see the April update for more details

If you are looking for a fight, go to inara and check most visited systems, Shinrarta Dezra will have pretty of people looking for fights.

 

[rhiz]

Happy mining and happy pvp’ing cmdr.

So, to recap:

1) The G5 efficient beams that I’ve painstakingly engineered and fitted to virtually all 14/15 of my ships are next to useless in PVP.

2) My situational awareness is so bad that, when I thought that I was being incapacitated my some "silver bullet" special effect, I was in fact face-planting into a field of mines.

3) My power priorities are a mess.



Thanks all.