You say it's a defining characteristic yet most people here have never had any problems staying out of trouble and have never experienced the problems you seem to be having.
Design 103 - To entice PvP interaction, the primary rule is "negligible cost for a loss"
- Thread starter Yokai
- Start date
You say it's a defining characteristic yet most people here have never had any problems staying out of trouble and have never experienced the problems you seem to be having.
Yokai +1, you have hit the nail on the head...and it's been said before and will be said again.
In Star Wars Galaxies, the cost of PvP was so high initially. After a couple of battles your uber-rare hard to find gear you had spent months acquiring and couldn't easily replace was destroyed. Months of grind lost in 5 minutes or less.
People naturally said screw that until they removed the vast penalties for pvp. There were some, but basically advancement was halted rather than reversed...except Jedi, and many players of the Jedi (lose VAST amounts of xp if killed) had their prized characters in such a bad state that they could never advance due to xp penalties, so you have a bunch of Jedi running around who could be killed by a Dancer.
I would not be a fan of no penalty for death here, just a vastly reduced one for PvP encounters.
In Star Wars Galaxies, the cost of PvP was so high initially. After a couple of battles your uber-rare hard to find gear you had spent months acquiring and couldn't easily replace was destroyed. Months of grind lost in 5 minutes or less.
People naturally said screw that until they removed the vast penalties for pvp. There were some, but basically advancement was halted rather than reversed...except Jedi, and many players of the Jedi (lose VAST amounts of xp if killed) had their prized characters in such a bad state that they could never advance due to xp penalties, so you have a bunch of Jedi running around who could be killed by a Dancer.
I would not be a fan of no penalty for death here, just a vastly reduced one for PvP encounters.
[video=youtube;YzZ86GYoxE0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzZ86GYoxE0[/video]
Sorry, couldn't resist. There is never a bad time to post this video and especially with that comment.
Ideas Man
Banned
A lot of people want to 'get in trouble' - not everyone is a scaredy cat lol
It's about making it fun for them, remove all PVP incurred costs
All I'm saying is the issue is being overstated. Personally I feel it needs tweaks in many areas cost of course being one of them. But if it's too costly balance that, the interdiction mechanic is so easy I'm sitting on a 99% success rate and I don't really try at all. Make it any easier and it's pointless to even be able to, and a total waste of effort.
And it isn't about bravery it's about enjoyment and I don't have fun if I can't lose in games of this genre. This is billed as a one of the more hardcore games around and it's why I bought it. If it had been pitched as a Sunday drive I wouldn't be here. A space walking simulator is not something I'll pay for with the likes of space engine around. Your not talking about balancing your talking about fundamentally changing the game to something none of us paid for because you don't like losing. I'm not worried that will ever change but the amount of misinformation being spread towards that end is getting to be a bit much.
Rep just for your sig image, lol.
Ideas Man
Banned
Aww ha ha thanks
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I feel for you, this is an extremely easy game once you find your feet, not sure where the 'hardcore' thing even comes from tbh.
I enjoy it like that but can see why some are upset about it, and even feel a bit miffed or whatever.
Go play Hello Kitty Online if you don't want PVP. This is Elite. And online mode is ONLINE. And in online, ALL methods of income generation should be viable, including the ones that involve killing other players. And in order for it to work, the consequences should be big and painful.
Ideas Man
Banned
The rewards for the victor should be big, the consequences for the loser should not exist, from a gameplay point of view what is the point in punishing the loser?
It's not fun, it's a fun tax, it is a tax on having fun.
Aww ha ha thanks
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I feel for you, this is an extremely easy game once you find your feet, not sure where the 'hardcore' thing even comes from tbh.
I enjoy it like that but can see why some are upset about it, and even feel a bit miffed or whatever.
Safe easy space exists where you can wander around with cargo holds of gold without the fear of death. So i cant understand it all. What's happening is people don't want to have to give up that extra profit for safety and it's hard to be sympathetic when in game greed trumps self preservation. If that's the game they want that's fine and the can ask for it, but saying there are no safe systems and you can't avoid interdictions and a python usually takes damage from another python, well no none of that is true and it needs to stop being repeated as a fact. If the basis of the debate is essentially based on those points, well.. its all moot anyways. The devs know what's in the code. You may be able to convince forumites that the mechanic is to onerous to be safe, but if the devs know that's not the case you are not going to get anywhere.
Ideas Man
Banned
I don't know why you are saying this to me, I'm a bit confused
Elite is a sandbox, death is fine
EVE is a sandbox, death is fine
and it's even harsher -yet there is no people crying constantly.
In fact,
EVE is a lot more balanced risk/reward. Thats the problem with Elite
Multiplayer was just thrown in to get sales (I can see people comparing singleplayer Elite to Singleplayer X-Rebirth)
It has no eco system - no balance
no pve/pve balance
no risk/reward balance. Nothing at all is balanced.
I love typing like this
EVE is a sandbox, death is fine
and it's even harsher -yet there is no people crying constantly.
In fact,
EVE is a lot more balanced risk/reward. Thats the problem with Elite
Multiplayer was just thrown in to get sales (I can see people comparing singleplayer Elite to Singleplayer X-Rebirth)
It has no eco system - no balance
no pve/pve balance
no risk/reward balance. Nothing at all is balanced.
I love typing like this
Why should the Federation send the Enterprise when a shuttle would do? To my way of seeing things, the last ship for daily fun is the Asp...barely. All others should never come out currently because there's no real way to support those ships. If you have to have the biggest toy in the box, I see no problems with having to repair it. As another person has stated, this is not so much a design issue as it is a development issue. There are no good reasons to play with the bigger ships, currently. Those ships should be for supporting a battle or series of traders, not for interdicting a measly cobra or even an Asp.
I always enjoy seeing new ideas and yours are interesting.
I always enjoy seeing new ideas and yours are interesting.
Congratulations on being the advocate of the "most people" group, and excuse me for defining unprovoked non-optional wildly imbalanced PvP in a pejorative way...
but picking on others is a bully's game.
Of course unless you mean the traders that play in solo mode, or PvE groups, all the commanders that will never qualify for the "Race to Elite". Or is that not a defining enough characteristic? What annoys me most is that the game is designed this way on purpose, it's obviously wrong and they have painted themselves into a corner that they are unwilling to walk out of.
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Yes well put, it's a pastime that charges you in amounts of fun in a facile and flawed attempt to inject meaning.
So, what you are saying is that you want to make it such that a pirate in a cheap eagle can first ram you, dump dumbfires at point blank range and explode, and then get a free follow up fresh out of a station of the system your in? Because that will be a thing except in the future they will just have more friends flying along side them.
The cost cuts both ways and serves as a throttle for re-engagement. Eliminating that cost for the loser isn't going to make your life better, it just means you will have more suicide attacks since most of that cost will be gone and thus much more easily perpetuated. You'll also note that the first step is the ramming and trying to get some fool proof determinism on who hit who is an exercise in futility. This idea of free death will be gamed up one side and down the other. Of course this also brings along the possibility of boiling down any sort of potential meta game and leave ED as a space ship FPS, which seems wildly divergent from Frontiers ambition and would be a huge disappointment.
Also, the notion that somehow a player losing time and effort being such an unstoppable force driving away players is quite soundly beat back by the long standing success of EVE. If Frontier ever wants to get a more vibrant eco system in ED then these kinds of costs are going to need to continue and in all likelihood get more "severe". Perhaps this could be entertained in solo, maybe group play, but not without other concessions.
But if you are keen to fly bloated loot pinatas you should only ever need to learn the lesson of "only fly what you can afford to lose" once. Besides, why are you entitled to constant progression? Do you really want pirates/pkers, because that is really what this is about, to be more reckless with constantly bigger ships and guns? You honestly want the wolves getting stronger without end?
If there were no consequences for the loser, why would the losers ever co-operate? Consequences are needed so they have to play the game "properly."
I'm saying I don't understand your sympathy because the problem is made up. Its only an issue if you make horrible decisions repetitively.
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
IMO the thing the op is not considering is that fighting to the death is NOT meant to be the norm. Pirates as a matter of course do not kill their prey as they are the golden geese. Mass murserers are meant to be rare due to the games hard consequences which are not easily gotten rid of.
The part of elite which is apparently not working as originally advertised is not the cost of ship destruction but is the response of the game against people who are causing the ship destruction. Pv P does not always have to be about blowing stuff up and DB actually explained many times that in ED blowing up pilots federation members would be discouraged and when it did happen WOUlD be rare and meaningful.
One thing worth focusing on when coming up with a mythical perfect solution to the risk/reward debate is the "currency" that the OP mentioned we all work with: Time. The credits themselves are pretty meaningless except when aligned against minutes/hours/days. One way to reduce the impact of lost time is to make that time more productive for elements other than credits. I think FD have considered this and hoped that the Elite rating system would be more of a carrot than it seems to be; their response to the argument might be, "Sure, you've lost the last two days' trading income to some shatfice in a Viper, but during those two days you've moved closer to Elite trader so those days haven't been wasted at all."
Progress in ED, from what I've picked up on these boards, seems to be measured in cash first, rating a distant second, and faction approval such a far distant third that it might as well not exist (I suppose you could include "having fun" as another metric, but I haven't). As ED matures I'm sure that these will balance out and new methods of visible progression will start being implemented (the Community Goals are one such...seeing civilisation expand after Yembo is, in a small way, progressing...you just can't really see the progress very well at this stage).
I suppose I'm saying, in my circumlocutory fashion, that you don't need to reduce the cash stakes in combat to reduce the time stakes. If the time were worth more than just cash then people might start enjoying getting blasted to pieces a bit more.
Progress in ED, from what I've picked up on these boards, seems to be measured in cash first, rating a distant second, and faction approval such a far distant third that it might as well not exist (I suppose you could include "having fun" as another metric, but I haven't). As ED matures I'm sure that these will balance out and new methods of visible progression will start being implemented (the Community Goals are one such...seeing civilisation expand after Yembo is, in a small way, progressing...you just can't really see the progress very well at this stage).
I suppose I'm saying, in my circumlocutory fashion, that you don't need to reduce the cash stakes in combat to reduce the time stakes. If the time were worth more than just cash then people might start enjoying getting blasted to pieces a bit more.
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