Detailed Discovery Scanner: Ammo Issue Proposal

[mossfoot]

Right now there seems to be a split in the forums regarding the Chapter 4 DSS probe ammo issue. Some want it back but very high and capable of being synthesized. Others are fine with it being unlimited.

Honestly the fact it is SHOWN as unlimited is far more annoying than it actually BEING unlimited. There's no point in having an ammo count if said ammo count is infinite. The only thing that does is remind you it's a game. If you're going to have unlimited ammo, remove the ammo count altogether. Done.

However, I do have one more possible option to suggest, already linked to how we play the game currently. We could make it so the DSS uses Plasma Slug technology like the rail gun modification. In other words, it uses a bit of fuel each time it's fired (not a lot, like 100 shots a ton or something?).

This would get rid of the synthesis issue, but makes us be careful about using it in a system without a scoopable star. But if infinite is the way to go, just remove the ammo listing altogether. It's not helping anyone.


Basically I think the DSS needs to do one of three things:

1) If infinite: REMOVE the ammo count. We don't need to see the infinity symbol there. It's pointless.
2) If finite, but synthesis is a problem, you could:
a) Make the ammo count HUGE (like 1,000,000)
b) Make the probe use Plasma Slug technology, so it just need fuel, not material synthesis.

 

[znôrt]

1) If infinite: REMOVE the ammo count. We don't need to see the infinity symbol there. It's pointless.
2) If finite, but synthesis is a problem, you could:
a) Make the ammo count HUGE (like 1,000,000)
b) Make the probe use Plasma Slug technology, so it just need fuel, not material synthesis.

any of them would be fine, they definitely overdid this.

 

[Ziljan]

Agree any of the options would be fine. Using fuel doesn't make much sense since hydrogen is a bit simple to form complex probe materials, but maybe they are simple plasma-based probes that refocus light back to the ship somehow?

The million ammo count is actually the most logical since they could be smaller versions of the nanoprobes used in Starshot and also traveling at relativistic speeds.

Spoiler

If they all weighed just under a gram each, then you could fit 1,000,000 of them in a 1.3T DSS and still have 0.3T for the actual scanner receiver.

 

[Weps]

Yup, supporting this.

 

[mossfoot]

Agree any of the options would be fine. Using fuel doesn't make much sense since hydrogen is a bit simple to form complex probe materials, but maybe they are simple plasma-based probes that refocus light back to the ship somehow?

The million ammo count is actually the most logical since they could be smaller versions of the nanoprobes used in Starshot and also traveling at relativistic speeds.

If they all weighed just under a gram each, then you could fit 1,000,000 of them in a 1.3T DSS and still have 0.3T for the actual scanner receiver.

Yeah, but plasma slugs in general don't really make sense for rail guns, right? Given that they still do kinetic damage

The way I see it, the plasma slug element would just refer to how they're launched, and, yeah, a nigh unlimited load of nano probes would make up the ammo (which is so high it might as well be unlimited).

 

[metatheurgist]

Finite but with wear and tear on the supply eventually requiring replacement. This means being efficient has a payoff over time.

 

[WR3ND]

Good ideas. High counts are nice, but not so high as to be impractical to keep track of. I think ideally these could be synthesized by some materials just floating around in asteroid belts or rings that you can pick up with your cargo scoop.

I'm alright with infinite probes in effect, but I think it should be explained away as them being synthesized as needed from byproduct materials from ship use, or something along those lines, maybe using some fuel (energy) in their production when charging up the peashooter.

Just tossing your hands up and saying, "oh well, it's just a game anyway," seems kind of lame to me. Just saying.

 

[Toumal]

Using a bit of fuel sounds great. And remove the infinity symbol. We all know it's just an 8 that fell on its face.

 

[Ziljan]

Yeah, but plasma slugs in general don't really make sense for rail guns, right? Given that they still do kinetic damage

The way I see it, the plasma slug element would just refer to how they're launched, and, yeah, a nigh unlimited load of nano probes would make up the ammo (which is so high it might as well be unlimited).

Plasma is fine for rail guns, because a rail gun is just hurling a simple mass at relativistic speeds, and why not have that mass be a bolt of hydrogen plasma? The problem for more complex structures like probes is that the plasma is only hydrogen, which is chemically too simple to have any complex structure unless it's made from a composite with other elements, elements that aren't available in pure hydrogen fuel. Theoretically you could get them from heavier atoms fused in the reactor, but at temperatures and pressures that a ship could withstand, these are likely to only be Helium, which is a chemically inert substance (ie you can't use it form compounds needed for electronic chips etc).

tldr, the only realistic solution for limited ammo is either synthesis and/or extremely high ammo counts.

 

[Lestat]

I tend not to agree with mossfoot but this time I do agree Rep + 1

I was suggesting 20,000 probes Roughly 4000 total planet scan. *use 5 probes per planet Plus If you have the surface scanner in module 2 up to 5 to make it up to 100,000 roughly 20,000 total system scan. So module size could also matter. Make it common materials. So all you need is a mining laser or SRV

It would break the annoyance of only scanning planet with no real reason to go to the planet or asteroid belt.

We can also look at a different way of getting Materials. Use Gas Giants and fuel scoop but it should take longer time this way.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I like it,
I still wish for some practical reason and need to land on planet during exploration though...

or...

Original DSS got limited probes... 1000 stock synthesizable with common material... not happy with that? Go to Felicity Farseer and modify your DSS to add an automatic probes synthesizer so you always have infinite probes.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So long as the mats are common my preference would be to collect them. Maybe 200 was a bit low but imo up to 500 would be better compromise to unlimited. Imo sample collecting is part of exploring but after seeing other thread I realise I am in minority .

 

[Cosmo]

Well how about let people mine asteroids for materials to make probes? The probe count should be high so that it doesn't get annoying to grind for materials.

 

[bitstorm]

I can understand but I'm not massively bothered either way.

On the stream I also was thinking a fuel based probe generator would work.

You can imagine that sound when an SLF has finished building occurring every minute or so as microprobes are fabricated, and a pool of say 1000 microprobes, so essentially a limited bucket that fills relatively quickly.

My follow up thoughts on that were that at this time we do not know what persists when you leave the system, I think it's likely if you leave a system and return then the state of partially gathered microprobe data for that system is lost. Which is may be they moved to infinite because you end up thinking about what the upper limit would have to be, then thinking about the player running out of probes having to leave and reseting some things, or the probes draining the fuel tank and leaving a player stranded, and think oh sod it just make it infinite.



As I say for me I don't think this is really that important, I can't help feeling it's one of those things that people look at and get picky about. But when in game and being used it does not matter so much and gets overlooked, like the vast majority of stuff in every game.

Worth noting the honk scanner currently says range is infinite and has an infinity symbol. This clearly makes no sense whatsoever because of very obvious reasons if you think about it, but in reality it's a complete non-issue. And in fact most explorers seem to want to keep it because it makes exploration accessible.


For me all I really care about is that if a change is made, it does not infringe (too much) on gameplay like other immersion driven features that have been added. I'm really not into the idea of forced material grind so people can explore.

One possibility I suppose is have probes locate material for fabricating probes so there's minimal barrier to restocking, but it looks like probes finding materials is not really a thing so that is probably not an option.

 

[Rubbernuke]

PD modules have an ammo count of 10,000, I think this probe launcher needs to follow suit.

The plasma slug launcher is perfect, if I was to rationalise it, I'd say that the 'probe' is simply energy that the ship tracks, and when it impacts the surface its the impact its measuring and not the probe itself doing it.

But, in any way, I dislike infinite probes as it totally undermines the concept of skill based gaming- there is no need to get better at lobbing probes as you can simply spam them out. That 'guide' is pointless and holds no practical use with infinite ammo. Its like this:

[video=youtube;BD4bKj2EBz0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD4bKj2EBz0[/video]

All 'skill' is in name only. The reward should be that you need to stock up less- its that minor inconvenience that should drive you to get better.

 

[Shnyrik]

If finite, but synthesis is a problem, you could:
a) Make the ammo count HUGE
b) Make the probe use Plasma Slug technology

Good point.

Actually all this would work fine as enginering options even if synthesis is not a problem

 

[RamirezKurita]

Another solution to having infinite probes would be to include multiple different sizes of DSS, which have different ammunition amounts, so players can choose to equip much larger DSS's for extra ammunition capacities. If the basic scanner itself weighs in at 1 tonne which leaves 300 kilos for probes and holds 3000 probes in that space, then a class 2 DSS would have 1600 kilograms of probes for a maximum capacity of 16 thousand probes. An Anaconda using its 2nd smallest slot would carry 94 thousand probes, which is enough for a pretty long trip even on a pretty small slot. An Exploration Cutter with a class 8 DSS would carry 1.654 million probes, an effectively infinite amount (enough for about 3 years of in-game time if you are averaging launching 1 per minute). Even medium sized ships, such as an exploration Krait with a class 6 DSS would mount the non-trivial number of 406 thousand probes. Even if we were to cut the number of probes by a factor of 10 from this example, any reasonably sized ship would still have enough probes for all but the longest expeditions.

I suppose things brings up an important question, how many planets does a player normally scan on a normal expedition into the black? I'm not taking about some grand voyage to Beagle Point or long-jumping around the galactic fringes (which would obviously demand the best equipment available), but your everyday Joe trip to a nearby nebula or other local site within 5-10 kly to see the sights and earn some cash, as that's what they should be balancing the average exploration ship around (while giving the option for the modules to scale up for the edge cases for those willing to invest).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But, in any way, I dislike infinite probes as it totally undermines the concept of skill based gaming- there is no need to get better at lobbing probes as you can simply spam them out. That 'guide' is pointless and holds no practical use with infinite ammo. Its like this:

Since you can only have three in flight at once, your reward is that it takes less time to map each planet if you're efficient about it. They mentioned that the target for a gas giant might be ~25, so if you're actually taking 50, and they have to fly quite a way around it, that's going to take a lot longer.

(I also got the impression from the stream that you got a bonus payout if you met 'par')

 

[Darkfyre99]

Right now there seems to be a split in the forums regarding the Chapter 4 DSS probe ammo issue. Some want it back but very high and capable of being synthesized. Others are fine with it being unlimited.

Honestly the fact it is SHOWN as unlimited is far more annoying than it actually BEING unlimited. There's no point in having an ammo count if said ammo count is infinite. The only thing that does is remind you it's a game. If you're going to have unlimited ammo, remove the ammo count altogether. Done.

However, I do have one more possible option to suggest, already linked to how we play the game currently. We could make it so the DSS uses Plasma Slug technology like the rail gun modification. In other words, it uses a bit of fuel each time it's fired (not a lot, like 100 shots a ton or something?).

This would get rid of the synthesis issue, but makes us be careful about using it in a system without a scoopable star. But if infinite is the way to go, just remove the ammo listing altogether. It's not helping anyone.


Basically I think the DSS needs to do one of three things:

1) If infinite: REMOVE the ammo count. We don't need to see the infinity symbol there. It's pointless.
2) If finite, but synthesis is a problem, you could:
a) Make the ammo count HUGE (like 1,000,000)
b) Make the probe use Plasma Slug technology, so it just need fuel, not material synthesis.

Of the three options you've offered, I'd prefer them to REMOVE the ammo count myself.

I actually find it easier to accept a functionally infinite number of probes, as my Commander gathering resources in situ for new probes while I'm offline (my baseline assumption is that I play the interesting parts of my Commander's life), than it is to accept that a 1.3 ton module has the storage space for more than ten FSD equipped probes. The third option, fuel use, I'm kind of indifferent to.

 

[Lestat]

Thing is we want some risk vs reward. To spray and pray Probes does not sound like much of a challenge. Even if you gain a 10% reward for using fewer probes. Most people are just going to shoot it until they get 100%.