DEVS: Why no social features like chat channels, guilds / corps and parties?

[LtCasey]

Hm,

There are three factions, no Clans needed, Chat? What for? Most Players organizing, are using TS, or any other voicecomms out there. Groupfunction is included, just working different.

Honestly, I find it pretty refreshing, that FD uses a different approach on Social functions. It annoyes me to hell, Breaking the immersion, reading "LFG raiding XYZ, inv pls, lvl3 whatever"

 

[DaHunn]

because they suck the immersion out of me
I personally don't need them.

 

[_Flin_]

Oh, I didn't figure that having to resort to TS, 3rd party chats, email and forum to communicate is immersive. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I personally don't need them.

You don't - no problem with that - but for the longevity of the game it does.

As long as you can opt out / leave the chat group there shouldn't be any issues.

WoW hooked a lot of players, including myself, for a long time not because the game was ground breaking or revolutionary in graphics / gameplay, etc; but for the social side of things .. When you find a group of people who think like you, have similar objectives and goals, or just want to hang together, it can be difficult to leave the game which Blizzard rely upon for sales .. FD would be wise to take note of this.

 

[RobinsonUK]

I think some ways to communicate with other players in-game would be good. I would particularly like to see some kind of moderated help channels, so new players aren't completely in the dark.

But it's funny when people write about their Eve experience. In Eve you take a game, by definition a virtual world that people go into to escape the real world, and then you go and replicate all of the social and corporate structures from the real world, turning the game into a kind-of job for many people, with obligations to each other, directors, bosses, managers and all of that. It turns my stomach to be honest.

 

[LukeP]

You don't - no problem with that - but for the longevity of the game it does.

As long as you can opt out / leave the chat group there shouldn't be any issues.

WoW hooked a lot of players, including myself, for a long time not because the game was ground breaking or revolutionary in graphics / gameplay, etc; but for the social side of things .. When you find a group of people who think like you, have similar objectives and goals, or just want to hang together, it can be difficult to leave the game which Blizzard rely upon for sales .. FD would be wise to take note of this.

That is precisely the point.

You do not want comms, and play space amish? opt out. That is choice that allows you to play your game, while simultaneously does not prevent all those people, for which social aspect is important, to enjoy theirs.

Whole point of online game is sharing experience. Sure it can be totally low brow, especially on friday evening. Which is why "off" switch is important.

In current times social aspect or lack of it can make and break the game.

 

[PersistentWorld]

Hm,

There are three factions, no Clans needed, Chat? What for? Most Players organizing, are using TS, or any other voicecomms out there. Groupfunction is included, just working different.

Honestly, I find it pretty refreshing, that FD uses a different approach on Social functions. It annoyes me to hell, Breaking the immersion, reading "LFG raiding XYZ, inv pls, lvl3 whatever"

For those of us new to Elite: Dangerous who A) Don't have friends already B) Aren't part of an Elite group or community outside of the game, how do you suppose we "find" these friends or players on Voicecomms without pursuing them Offline first? Is that not an incredibly flawed logic? You're asking for a feature to be missing to bypass it with external systems. That's not only unfriendly to new players but a pretty terrible user experience.

 

[Daeron]

For those of us new to Elite: Dangerous who A) Don't have friends already B) Aren't part of an Elite group or community outside of the game, how do you suppose we "find" these friends or players on Voicecomms without pursuing them Offline first? Is that not an incredibly flawed logic? You're asking for a feature to be missing to bypass it with external systems. That's not only unfriendly to new players but a pretty terrible user experience.

The natural order in which to make friends, is to first interact with them locally in the game, and after that, things tend to move on to external tools, if need be. That was at least how it worked in Ultima Online, where chat only was shown when you approached someone. To make friends outside of that of close interaction, is to make a list of names in essence, and little more. The best friends are often those you stumble across, to pre-plan your friendship is a more modern, and ( this is on my cape ) robotic approach.

 

[enbeekay]

It certainly mentions guilds.

Guilds need content / raids / loot / magic travel / etc.; Corporations need a reason to exist, i.e. territorial control; trade embargoes; etc..

I have to disagree with that.
I was quite happy in an EVE Corp running PvE missions and incursions
A Corp doesnt need a reason to exist other than a way for people to get together and play

 

[PersistentWorld]

The natural order in which to make friends, is to first interact with them locally in the game, and after that, things tend to move on to external tools, if need be. That was at least how it worked in Ultima Online, where chat only was shown when you approached someone. To make friends outside of that of close interaction, is to make a list of names in essence, and little more. The best friends are often those you stumble across, to pre-plan your friendship is a more modern, and ( this is on my cape ) robotic approach.

That's absolutely fine, but Ultima Online is 17 years old and in Elite: Dangerous I've never once been able to interact locally with another player because they do not respond to Hails. If players had the ability to openly chat in Stations without the requirement of Hailing, then it becomes a possibility to actually stumble across future friends. As it stands now, the lack of social tools is just a giant road block that people are attempting to validate.

 

[Tian]

I would really like to see "station local chat" and most of all party system/fleet system.
I'm not a big fan of global or star system chat...

 

[Daeron]

That's absolutely fine, but Ultima Online is 17 years old and in Elite: Dangerous I've never once been able to interact locally with another player because they do not respond to Hails. If players had the ability to openly chat in Stations without the requirement of Hailing, then it becomes a possibility to actually stumble across future friends. As it stands now, the lack of social tools is just a giant road block that people are attempting to validate.

I completely agree that local interaction needs reinforcement, love, and support all the way. For nothing can start without a proper beginning.

 

[Seonid]

I've never once been able to interact locally with another player because they do not respond to Hails.

And what percentage of those lack or responses were due to either the player not knowing how comms worked, had not bound the keys or simply didn't notice as there is currently no noticeable cue that you have been hailed? I still miss them sometimes myself.

 

[Theodrid]

Posted this in the other thread - as there are two felt I'd leave my two pennies worth here as well.

Personally, and I've posted in similar threads before, I am against a 'system wide' chat, I could possibly be convinced concerning 'station chat' but for me that would need to either be 'off' by default or need to be 'opened' on a pilot to pilot basis. The problem with the 'don't want it, don't use it' argument is that if, for example, 'station chat' became the default place/channel to group, to discuss problems in the system etc then it would almost have to be used whether you want it or not. A better solution to grouping up for a difficult NPC for example would be via a pilot message on the bulletin board, on acceptance you would be able to comm the pilot who posted it no matter what system they were in and you would be able to form a wing, (of sorts). The 'make the galaxy feel alive' argument, (in relation to system wide chat), holds some validity but falls down for me as soon as it turns into 'HODOR', 'Chuck Norris x, y, z', 'shut up noob' and the like, which, sadly, it will inevitably do so. That doesn't 'feel alive' to me, it feels like every other MMO, it feels like I could be stood in Stormwind from WoW, or the Republic Fleet in SWTOR or any other MMO 'hub' you could care to mention. As others have said, you can form your groups/guilds/clans to some degree in the 'groups' section of these forums, you can post your TS details on there, or, if you want them more private, pm them to each user, to a large degree your 'guild chat' is sorted right there, of course some do not want to use voice comms and I'm not sure how to address that tbh.

As for guilds, as others have said, the main 'guilds' in this game are the factions, I realise this is not ideal for some, the counter of 'well I was in the Horde in WoW and still in a guild' is of course valid. But, and this is the big 'but', the one pilot, one ship element in this game is vital to what they are trying to create in terms of atmosphere, in terms of an, (occasional at least), sense of isolation in the vastness of the galaxy, and, I believe, in terms of the importance of feeling alligned with your faction should you choose to back one or the other. I'm not sure a guild 'flying under one banner' within the context of a larger banner, (Empire, Federation, Alliance), really fits, though, I get others do not share that opinion.

I'm sure there will be some more coming in terms of 'grouping' in Elite Dangerous but I doubt very much you are ever going to feel like you are stood in the central square in Stormwind, and I for one, say thank god for that!.

 

[hunvagy]

That's absolutely fine, but Ultima Online is 17 years old and in Elite: Dangerous I've never once been able to interact locally with another player because they do not respond to Hails. If players had the ability to openly chat in Stations without the requirement of Hailing, then it becomes a possibility to actually stumble across future friends. As it stands now, the lack of social tools is just a giant road block that people are attempting to validate.

Yes, the comms are clunky and most people don't even see you are hailing them. Or maybe they don't want to talk to you? Why is it a need that random people respond to you in MMOs? Like spamming guild invites without even saying a word? It's the most disgusting thing ever, and all it earns is me switching off "accept guild invites" as soon as my character is created.

And guilds will sooner or later mean that people start whining that there's no exclusive guild content. They always will and always do. But the game blurb says that you can blaze your trail on your own OR with friends, not that "we also have all these cool things, but only if your guild is level 6, you have 200 members, and everyone has iLevel 200 top gear, otherwise better luck next time". If those features are introduced, that means that there will be a need for a way to PUG. PUG means spam, which will end up on the chat channels.

And you know what, I can pretty damn well live without this tosh, at least in Elite.

 

[Nikonthenet]

This discussions rather moot, isn't it?

I mean, the OP was posted after the latest newsletter which indicates Gamma will have grouping functions and 6 way group chats. FD have also suggested they will continually develop both group and coop game-play, and the wider game of course.

They have repeatedly discussed being able to walk around on stations...I'm sure they also plan to let us talk to each other, individually and as groups.

Is it really too much to imagine the above features will develop over time to include much of whats discussed on this topic?

TLR, They are already including the foundation for group game-play in gamma, and as with every online game ever, the features will develop and hopefully improve over time.

 

[PersistentWorld]

Yes, the comms are clunky and most people don't even see you are hailing them. Or maybe they don't want to talk to you? Why is it a need that random people respond to you in MMOs? Like spamming guild invites without even saying a word? It's the most disgusting thing ever, and all it earns is me switching off "accept guild invites" as soon as my character is created.

And guilds will sooner or later mean that people start whining that there's no exclusive guild content. They always will and always do. But the game blurb says that you can blaze your trail on your own OR with friends, not that "we also have all these cool things, but only if your guild is level 6, you have 200 members, and everyone has iLevel 200 top gear, otherwise better luck next time". If those features are introduced, that means that there will be a need for a way to PUG. PUG means spam, which will end up on the chat channels.

And you know what, I can pretty damn well live without this tosh, at least in Elite.

Well by that very logic, you're forcing players into a catch 22 scenario. Players want immersion and are happy with the current method in which to chat to other pilots, but on the flip side new players or existing players who are seeking help, advice or friends are relying on Hailing to make that first connection. You're then saying they shouldn't "randomly" hail people because it's like spamming guild invites - what? It's a no win situation. Without hailing someone you cannot talk to them. Without any other way in which to then ask for help in game, you're forced to go offline and look on here, Reddit or YouTube breaking immersion completely. The whole scenario is just bonkers.

 

[hunvagy]

Well by that very logic, you're in a catch 22 scenario. Players want immersion and are happy with the current method in which to chat to other pilots, but on the flip side new players or existing players who are seeking help, advice or friends are relying on Hailing to make that first connection. You're then saying they shouldn't "randomly" hail people because it's like spamming guild invites - what? It's a no win situation. Without hailing someone you cannot talk to them. Without any other way in which to ask for help in game, you're forced to go offline and look on here, Reddit or YouTube. The whole scenario is just bonkers.

Yes because reading wikis is so hard to do. Or I don't know, going through the tutorials, and what's not covered there .. I'm just throwing out this idea.. try for yourself? People are behaving like you need a doctorate in theoretical physics to figure out the systems of Elite Dangerous. Seriously, it doesn't take that much to get a grasp of basic controls, and everything else is pretty much self explanatory. If someone can't invest that much time, instead comes crying to random people flying past, then how can you expect them to actually invest into the real content?

Also I didn't say that I turn away everyone, but this need to randomly send tells to people is mostly annyoing, especially if the sender keeps bugging after there's no answer right away. Guild invites was an extreme example yes, but it's one of the things that usually earns people spots on my blacklist. If you want me to take your group seriously, at least take the courtesy of sending me a proper tell instead of just a guild invite popping up. Especially when I'm in the middle of combat, a modular window blocking my view and almost getting me killed is not something that earns good karma points.

With all that said, with the current state of communication in the game, something for stations would be good, yes. Even for new players, if you want. A flight school of sorts run at a certain station, that gives out tips & tricks. Call it "My First Sidewinder" if you want.

But no global, no zone, and especially no yell or shout. A chat channel active within the no-fire zone of a station? Yes, I am all for it. Everything else that can lead to spamming the top right screen? No thank you.

 

[Dejay]

Because there are no friendly players, only docking obstacles.

Haha well put. We need more player interaction. Not necessarily on release, but we definitely need a DESIGN for it. Since there is nothing in the DDF it's important for FD to create a good vision for the multiplayer aspect. Currently I can see none and I assume there simply is no vision for this.

Some randomly existing "explorer channel" would kill a good number of great stories taking place in space or even earthbound isolated locations, where you are faced with the unknown, and have to rely on your own wit and resources. It makes for a poor implementation of drama in space. Blind implementation of features for their own sake, is the exact opposite way of how to do it right, in my book at least. And a few good classics while at it.

Sorry but you are not making any sense. It's understood and I've replied to you before that these features are OPTIONAL. If you don't like them, don't use them. So your argument that it would negatively impact you is absolutely facetious.

And if you don't like multiplayer interaction just play solo.

It certainly mentions guilds

It doesn't. It mentioned alliances but it's unclear if they are parties, if they even have group chat or if they are permanent. There is a giant black hole gaping where a consistent design should be.

The natural order in which to make friends, is to first interact with them locally in the game

Yes but you have to click around with the mouse to actually hail them, there is no info sound you got a player message etc. The implementation itself is lacking. It is bad. FD is ignoring this problem. Also the current design seems to focus on "group shards" instead of "guilds", so you could not even make contact with a different group since you can't see or interact with them inside the game.

Honestly, I find it pretty refreshing, that FD uses a different approach on Social functions. It annoyes me to hell, Breaking the immersion, reading "LFG raiding XYZ, inv pls, lvl3 whatever"

Again, simply disable the chat then.

Please god no System chat function, that would be plain terrible. Wouldn't even make sense in game at all.

Again, simply disable the chat then.

Please don't repeating the same fallacy ad nausea but instead please argue why disabling the chat would be a problem for you.

Not trying to be funny but if it isn't in the DDF lists then it isn't going to happen anytime soon, there is real stuff for them to be working on like .......umm the game release!

Yes have you read the tentonhammers article? Lack of social functions will get mentioned in reviews and will drive lots of people to wait for SC instead.

Saying you can use external tools and alt-tab to chat outside the game really is silly because it totally breaks immersion.

 

[Dejay]

This discussions rather moot, isn't it?

I mean, the OP was posted after the latest newsletter which indicates Gamma will have grouping functions and 6 way group chats.

Groups mean "server shard" so it does nothing for social features. Actually pushing the "group / server shard" feature is making the game LESS sociable since your group is the only player in the galaxy and you can interact / chat with players outside your group.

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Yes, the comms are clunky and most people don't even see you are hailing them. Or maybe they don't want to talk to you?

And guilds will sooner or later mean that people start whining that there's no exclusive guild content.

So what is wrong in making sure players at least NOTICE when someone hails them? Your argument seems to want to defend a bad implementation with arguments that are illogical. Why play multiplayer online if you don#t want to interact with players?

As for guild exclusive content that is actually the direction David Braben wants to take the game. In the newsletter QA about no offline mode he talks about how large player groups can affect the galaxy:

We have developed a multi-player game with an unfolding story involving the players, and groups collaborating with specific objectives and taking account of all player’s behaviour. This is what the game is about. Without this it would not be the rich gaming experience that we will deliver, and would be a great disappointment to all players.

Also there is nothing wrong with group content, especially procedurally generated missions that a balanced for a larger group would be awesome. That doesn't mean that ED will turn into WoW at all, just that groups of player can have fun cooperating any time they want. Procedural generation would lead this into a completely different direction than static content raids etc.