Different colour-coded heat maps for planet surfaces relative to concentration of a given biological organism or geological formation

[Angus McSix]

As the thread title states, introduce different colours of heatmaps corresponding to concentration of a given filtered item, rather than having one universal blue/teal colour.

Reason for suggestion: Because I'm seriously quite annoyed that I've been driving in my SRV through this Fungoida zone for the last 2 hours and have not yet found a single organism to sample, but lord, I can't go a minute on wheels without running into Frutexa plants that the planet is absolutely COVERED with.

Edit: FINALLY found what I was looking for, but my suggestion absolutely still stands.

 

[varonica]

As the thread title states, introduce different colours of heatmaps corresponding to concentration of a given filtered item, rather than having one universal blue/teal colour.

Reason for suggestion: Because I'm seriously quite annoyed that I've been driving in my SRV through this Fungoida zone for the last 2 hours and have not yet found a single organism to sample, but lord, I can't go a minute on wheels without running into Frutexa plants that the planet is absolutely COVERED with.

Edit: FINALLY found what I was looking for, but my suggestion absolutely still stands.

It's likely that info doesn't exist to be displayed, fact is the current map, which is not a heat map, it doesn't indicate distribution of the bio, it indicates distribution of certain compatible ecological requirements, things like temperature, air density (which often equates to elevation), but not actual existence of bio. These ecological patterns are generated by the game from the seed when the planet is generated, bio distribution is I suspect an entirely different procedural process and may not be available when the probes are launched. The reasons remain opaque as to why we don't actually have a bio distribution heat map, and it may even be simply because the Devs want people to think about stuff more rather than just be given arrows pointing at stuff, but that's something only they know.

Fact is if you spent 2 hours looking for fungoids and couldn't find them you were looking at the wrong landscape type, working this out doesn't take 2 hours, it takes 2 minutes, can't find it, change landscape types. For instance I had a blue area that had plains and mountains in and I dropped onto the plains area and saw nothing while flying around for a couple of minutes, that indicates the correct area isn't flat plains but probably mountains, flew to the mountains a found them immediately. There is some thinking required for bio hunting, you get to know what type of bio likes what type of landscape and can find them quickly once you understand that, a lot of people like it because it does requires thinking about stuff.

 

[Angus McSix]

In this particular case, the fungoid "dispersion pattern" (for lack of a better term) was all in mountainous areas. Every area on the surface where the pattern showed up was mountainous, so there was no variation of landscape type as you're describing.

Furthermore, if this is in fact true, then it's counter-intuitive. If the DSS shows a blue spot on the surface of a moon or planet, then I expect to find what I'm looking for when I glide down to that region, and I expect to find it PDQ (less than 10 minutes, we'll say). Otherwise, what's the point of the blue spots?

My suggestion is legitimate and bears consideration. Please do not try and hand-wave it away with this counter-intuitive explanation.

 

[varonica]

In this particular case, the fungoid "dispersion pattern" (for lack of a better term) was all in mountainous areas. Every area on the surface where the pattern showed up was mountainous, so there was no variation of landscape type as you're describing.

Furthermore, if this is in fact true, then it's counter-intuitive. If the DSS shows a blue spot on the surface of a moon or planet, then I expect to find what I'm looking for when I glide down to that region, and I expect to find it PDQ (less than 10 minutes, we'll say). Otherwise, what's the point of the blue spots?

My suggestion is legitimate and bears consideration. Please do not try and hand-wave it away with this counter-intuitive explanation.

I've already explained the point of the blue spots, they indicate a compatible ecological niche, not bio locations.

It's not counter-intuitive, it's actually how the location maps work, they aren't going to change without a major game update, if ever. If the bio you were looking for is the type I suspect it is then they are simple spread out slightly more than the regular types, but 2 hours still isn't the norm once you learn how to hunt them down properly. Sometimes they are also very hard to see in the mountains, it's likely you flew over or past a number of patches before spotting that particular one, some bio requires you change search strategy when looking for them, for instance running night vision even during the day will reveal bio that's sometimes invisible to the naked eye. Stopping in a spot and using the free camera to search ledges and crevasses for them helps a lot, it wouldn't be the one time I have been on one side of a slight ridge and they were only a few meters away and just using the free camera to look around revealed them to me immediately when I would have flown straight past them otherwise.

FDEV have explained clearly that the blue areas are possible locations based on environment, not absolute certain locations based on bio presence. The fact you can't accept that means you are just making things harder for yourself. You need to understand the way things work and adjust your behaviour for that, not behave a certain way and expect FDEV to adjust the game to suit the way you behave, that's not going to happen!

Good bio hunting, there are plenty of help threads around on how to find bio easier, suggest reading some of them because the games not going to change the way it does things because you are unhappy with it.

 

[Angus McSix]

I've already explained the point of the blue spots, they indicate a compatible ecological niche, not bio locations.

I'm not here for an explanation; I'm here to make a suggestion

It's not counter-intuitive, it's actually how the location maps work, they aren't going to change without a major game update, if ever. If the bio you were looking for is the type I suspect it is then they are simple spread out slightly more than the regular types, but 2 hours still isn't the norm once you learn how to hunt them down properly. Sometimes they are also very hard to see in the mountains, it's likely you flew over or past a number of patches before spotting that particular one, some bio requires you change search strategy when looking for them, for instance running night vision even during the day will reveal bio that's sometimes invisible to the naked eye. Stopping in a spot and using the free camera to search ledges and crevasses for them helps a lot, it wouldn't be the one time I have been on one side of a slight ridge and they were only a few meters away and just using the free camera to look around revealed them to me immediately when I would have flown straight past them otherwise.

These blue zones for biological signals become apparent only after fully mapping a planet with probes. It can be assumed that the probes have "detected trace amounts of [insert biological classification here] in this blue-coloured area here." It is therefore intuitive to assume that as one flies over those blue zones and lands within them once close enough to the surface, that one will eventually find the biological classification they are looking for with even just casual surveying in an SRV or flying over the surface. If that is in fact NOT the case, then yes, that would be counter-intuitive.

What you have explained in your previous post is not described anywhere in-game. Indeed, the only information regarding organic mapping in-game is as follows:

This description does not match your explanation.

FDEV have explained clearly that the blue areas are possible locations based on environment, not absolute certain locations based on bio presence.

Then FDEV are providing conflicting information with what is provided in game. They do their playerbase a disservice by misleading them later with what I can only assume are posts here in the forums, which not every player frequents on a regular basis. I myself only come to the forums when I'm experiencing a problem and the solution is not immediately apparent.

The playerbase should also not accept FDEV's explanation due to this inherent conflict. Either FDEV should change the biological DSS mapping to be more like what their in-game knowledge-base implies AND what I am suggesting as an improvement, or be more up-front in-game with how to properly make use of the Detailed Surface Scanner and how to interpret the data it provides us.

Just because FDEV explains themselves, doesn't mean they no longer need to address the problem.

The fact you can't accept that means you are just making things harder for yourself. You need to understand the way things work and adjust your behaviour for that, not behave a certain way and expect FDEV to adjust the game to suit the way you behave, that's not going to happen!

I reject your position and submit that the playerbase ought to expect -- and hold -- a higher standard from FDEV.

 

[Fnord Velkor]

As the thread title states, introduce different colours of heatmaps corresponding to concentration of a given filtered item, rather than having one universal blue/teal colour.
....

They tried this, it didn't work, now you just get blue to show possible areas (or to not show blue in the impossible / improbable areas).

 

[Fixitman]

Varonica is correct in explaining how this actually works, but the pilot's handbook describes how FDev wanted it to work. If they're not planning on changing the game to match the handbook, they should at least change the handbook to match the game.

 

[Lhorndra]

In this particular case, the fungoid "dispersion pattern" (for lack of a better term) was all in mountainous areas. Every area on the surface where the pattern showed up was mountainous, so there was no variation of landscape type as you're describing.

Even so, different plants prefer different subtypes within a certain landscape: Osseus is often found on top of cliffs and ridges of craters in flatland terrain. If Stratum and Aleoida are present on the same planet, they will be near each other almost 100% of the time. Concha never appears at the top of hills or mountains, only in ravines or the base. Fungoida often grows in the more rugged parts of a mountain range, rarely on a mesa or a deep, flat valley.

Furthermore, if this is in fact true, then it's counter-intuitive. If the DSS shows a blue spot on the surface of a moon or planet, then I expect to find what I'm looking for when I glide down to that region, and I expect to find it PDQ (less than 10 minutes, we'll say). Otherwise, what's the point of the blue spots?

It's a little bit like the real world, really, although much simplified. The blue area indicates the theoretical distribution area of well, let's call them seeds or spores. However, these seeds only sprout and thrive when additional conditions are met: Slope too steep? Yeah, Concha seeds do land here (DSS = blue area), but because they are (I'm making this up now) round and heavy, they tumble and roll all the way down, where they can finally sprout. Maybe Fungoida really dislike wind, that's why they don't thrive in the more open, flat terrain of a mountain range.

Indeed, the only information regarding organic mapping in-game is as follows:

View attachment 363847
This description does not match your explanation.

Totally agree, this is not worded very precisely.

 

[Brrokk]

As the thread title states, introduce different colours of heatmaps corresponding to concentration of a given filtered item, rather than having one universal blue/teal colour.

Reason for suggestion: Because I'm seriously quite annoyed that I've been driving in my SRV through this Fungoida zone for the last 2 hours and have not yet found a single organism to sample, but lord, I can't go a minute on wheels without running into Frutexa plants that the planet is absolutely COVERED with.

Edit: FINALLY found what I was looking for, but my suggestion absolutely still stands.

You have found that in the DSS view, pressing E changes the displayed plant type? I don't mean to seem sarcastic, I'd actually been doing exobiology for some days before I realised this.

 

[Northpin]

I'm not here for an explanation; I'm here to make a suggestion



These blue zones for biological signals become apparent only after fully mapping a planet with probes. It can be assumed that the probes have "detected trace amounts of [insert biological classification here] in this blue-coloured area here." It is therefore intuitive to assume that as one flies over those blue zones and lands within them once close enough to the surface, that one will eventually find the biological classification they are looking for with even just casual surveying in an SRV or flying over the surface. If that is in fact NOT the case, then yes, that would be counter-intuitive.

What you have explained in your previous post is not described anywhere in-game. Indeed, the only information regarding organic mapping in-game is as follows:

View attachment 363847
This description does not match your explanation.


Then FDEV are providing conflicting information with what is provided in game. They do their playerbase a disservice by misleading them later with what I can only assume are posts here in the forums, which not every player frequents on a regular basis. I myself only come to the forums when I'm experiencing a problem and the solution is not immediately apparent.

The playerbase should also not accept FDEV's explanation due to this inherent conflict. Either FDEV should change the biological DSS mapping to be more like what their in-game knowledge-base implies AND what I am suggesting as an improvement, or be more up-front in-game with how to properly make use of the Detailed Surface Scanner and how to interpret the data it provides us.

Just because FDEV explains themselves, doesn't mean they no longer need to address the problem.



I reject your position and submit that the playerbase ought to expect -- and hold -- a higher standard from FDEV.

You are free to sue them

(i'm not saying you aren't right about the discrepancies between the in-game description and how actually the game works, but pulling a Karen wont help, so better re-read Veronica's post and learn how the system actually works since it will serve you better in your exobiology endeavour - ofc assuming you wont rage quit today or in the very near future)

 

[Tairon Usaro]

Why this hostility? I just came back after a long hibernation and I to have agree with the op & say the system is counterintuitive for me. There is the mini game of planet scanning and the result is just a blue sphere. While in Horizon the result was a list of POI entries, the „scan results“ of Odessy is next to nothing. OK you get types but when it comes to whereabouts it’s not informative or the information value is very very very low.

It’s my personal playstyle so i don’t judge others if they have a different but if you ask me, i would love to revert the mechanics to horizon. But I understand that the devs wantd more interaction with the surface, so here is my suggestion:

Devs speak about heatmap, make it a heatmap…. in 2 D, persistent the whole time in ship. the heatmap is based on a x km2 average of population density. Or better, make it a class 1 module and have the resolution as one of the attributes. Without the module you only get 100km2 res heat map on the sphere that gets lost after orbital mode. With the best module you get a 2 km2 heatmap res. Still some exploration in flight and on ground but not as counterintuitive as it now and you give the pilots choices of how deeply they want to engage with that part of the game

 

[varonica]

Devs speak about heatmap, make it a heatmap…. in 2 D, persistent the whole time in ship. the heatmap is based on a x km2 average of population density.

That's likely impossible, the bio are generated procedurally, and given the density I have seen for some of the bio it's likely there are trillions of individual plants that would have to be located and marked to create a heat map, procedural generation doesn't actually give you the location for the plants, that's why it's used, there are no pre-determined locations, it's a semi-random process. The question is, are you willing to sit there for at least several hours while your computer calculates the location of trillions of plants and generates the heatmap? To get an idea of this just ask around about the early POI generation before they made it start guessing, where there were only a few locations and the minutes some people with slower compouters had to wait for the game to generate those, then multiply that by trillions.

 

[Angus McSix]

You are free to sue them

(i'm not saying you aren't right about the discrepancies between the in-game description and how actually the game works, but pulling a Karen wont help, so better re-read Veronica's post and learn how the system actually works since it will serve you better in your exobiology endeavour - ofc assuming you wont rage quit today or in the very near future)

Don't be obtuse.

Me making a suggestion does not get overruled when anyone else explains to me how the system ACTUALLY works, even if how it ACTUALLY works is in direct conflict with the in-game description of how it is SUPPOSED to work. My suggestion is still valid, and was fair and level-headed. The response to my suggestion was to shut it down, and I take exception to that.

Why this hostility? I just came back after a long hibernation and I to have agree with the op & say the system is counterintuitive for me.

People don't like it when their precious FDev is held accountable, would be my guess.

That's likely impossible, the bio are generated procedurally, and given the density I have seen for some of the bio it's likely there are trillions of individual plants that would have to be located and marked to create a heat map, procedural generation doesn't actually give you the location for the plants, that's why it's used, there are no pre-determined locations, it's a semi-random process.

I find that hard to believe, the part about procedural generation at least. Back in April, I asked my PP community veterans for suggestions to farm grade 4 Raw materials quickly and efficiently. I was directed to a youtube video by Down To Earth Astronomy about a treasure trove of all the grade 4 materials somewhere in the Sanguineous Rim. When I had the time, I made a road trip out there to farm the mats.

The Down To Earth Astronomy video sent me down a rabbit-hole of internet surfing, which eventually led me to discover someone -- I can't remember if it was DTE himself or another helpful explorer -- providing longitude and latitude co-ordinates on each planet to find large reserves of the very materials I was searching for. Now if these biomes are procedurally generated, as you suggest, then it's entirely possible that if I were to arrive and fly directly to those geolocations, that I COULD potentially find empty landscape. But to the best of my knowledge, I don't. As I understand it, that particular geolocation can consistently and reliably be visited by every pilot in the galaxy, and there will ALWAYS be a these big tall spiky things sticking out of the ground like a dense forest.

This suggests to me that the locations of biomes on Odyssey planets are indeed fixed, and if they are fixed, then it should be no problem on FDev's part to reflect that on an accurate heatmap of a planet as a pilot approaches it in Analysis Mode.

 

[Mark Zero]

People don't like it when their precious FDev is held accountable, would be my guess.

New on the forums, I'm guessing? All people ever do is "hold FDev accountable" (bash absolutely everything they ever try or do not try to do ever always forever). I don't think I've met one person in the Elite community who treats FDev like they're precious, even the positive folks.

Your suggestion has merit, but I think the reason you're getting people pushing back with explanations is that you're asking for an entire gameplay loop to be redesigned to accommodate it. So instead of supporting that suggestion, they're trying to help you understand how the thing works in order to solve your problem (and to be right, because let's face it, nerds love being right). FDev probably is not going to redesign the entire Exobiology plant generation system in order to make a true heatmap work. As someone above me suggested, it'd be more feasible for them to update the Pilot's Handbook to have a more accurate description of what the blue overlay means.

So yeah, good suggestion, but probably not happening. Learning how the existing system works is probably gonna save you a lot of headache.

 

[Angus McSix]

New on the forums, I'm guessing? All people ever do is "hold FDev accountable" (bash absolutely everything they ever try or do not try to do ever always forever). I don't think I've met one person in the Elite community who treats FDev like they're precious, even the positive folks.

Elite: Dangerous has so much unrealized potential. They reached for the moon with so many elements of the game. And while they may have missed the moon, they still produced a product worthy of at least being among the stars.

But that being said, to have such lofty ambitions, to get their players excited about how great the game COULD be, only to quit halfway through, is very disappointing and I believe we as players have every right to let FDev know we expect better from them.

Things like:

• TRUE atmospheric planet landings. Heck, the ability to land on the surface of ANY safe planet should have been made a permanent feature by the time Odyssey was released,
• Ship interiors,
• EVA activities IN SPACE,
• More variety in crashed ships on planet surfaces (More than just the eagle, cobra Mk III, and Sidewinder. Let me see pythons, anacondas, cutters, beluga liners, etc),
• Scavenging derelict crafts in space in Remlok suits.

And that's just a few off the top of my head. I'm probably leaving a ton of things off the table here only because I can't think of them right away.

 

[Fixitman]

Elite Dangerous could have many things. It would take decades to implement them all.

I prefer to enjoy what I have, instead of wishing for what I don't. Bringing up old suggestions is unproductive wishful thinking.

 

[Angus McSix]

Elite Dangerous could have many things. It would take decades to implement them all.

I prefer to enjoy what I have, instead of wishing for what I don't. Bringing up old suggestions is unproductive wishful thinking.

No Man's Sky, Star Citizen, and recently Starfield say otherwise. Certainly each space simulator has their own sets of advantages and flaws, some games do certain things better but absolutely fall flat in other areas. Areas where other space sims may have mastered them. I grew up playing Frontier: First Encounters, so it was only natural for me to graduate to Elite: Dangerous. Playing F:FE as I did, I KNOW that landing on garden worlds can be done, because you could do it in that game, so to me there's no excuse for us not being able to do it in Elite.

I tried Star Citizen, and while I LOVED the ship interior elements, I found the rest of it lacking, and in what I found lacking, I heard Elite calling back to me.

Enjoy what you have, certainly. But do NOT let FDev off the hook for failing to deliver on what you wish for. Because if you stop asking for it, they'll stop pursuing it (and probably be glad of it, so they can focus on more Thargoid stuff). There are elements in this game that absolutely are possible, because other games are proving it can be done. In my eyes, FDev has no excuse for not releasing ship interiors. Even if they had to be purchased using ARX separately for each ship, I would gladly do it in a heartbeat.

I want to tour my Imperial Cutter from nose to tail. I want to log off the game laying down in the king-size bed in my luxurious Commander's Quarters, not sitting in my pilot seat.
I want to pass through the airlock and walk down those luxurious steps after I've landed to go ashore, and climb back up them to come aboard.
I want to walk through the ship's galley and fix myself a cup of Any Na Coffee or eat a meal, even if it's just aesthetic.
I want to use materials that I've gathered, both raw and manufactured, and walk down to modules in the ship and open up maintenance hatches and use them to apply temporary boosters.
I want my FSD and thrusters to decay over time on a per-jump basis and require routine maintenance (once every 48 to 72 hours of game time, we'll say), both inside and outside the ship.
I want to walk into the passenger cabin and see the passengers I'm carrying. They don't have to even be doing anything particularly interesting; they could just be reading information packets from tourist beacons I've downloaded for them on their sightseeing tour, watching an insight program on a VR headset, sleeping, eating, or anything like that.
I want to have the ability to use my Cutter like a dropship and fly over surface conflict zones, dropping fresh troops onto the ground to fight for the faction of my choosing, like the Vulture and Diamondback ships do.
There are observation decks on the Cutter and the Beluga Liner. I want to wander through them.

But if I stop asking for these things, then I'll never get them. If I accept FDev's excuses that boil down to "we bit off more than we could chew," then I'm letting them off the hook and tacitly giving them my blessing to stop realizing the game's full potential just because they find it difficult. And when another game comes along that does everything Elite can but better, I'll jump ship like so many other players have.

 

[jojon]

So... While I have done my fair bit of griping about the nebulous blue, and the unpublished exact condtions it reflects, and conditions it leaves out, I can think of a technical limitation to making a reliable heatmap, and this is that more large-scale levels of procedural terrain generation could simply lack the resolution prerequisite to perform procedural plant object scattering -- you don't know what the ground is like, until you have generated past a certain level of detail.

 

[Fixitman]

But if I stop asking for these things, then I'll never get them.

And if we continue asking for the same things, nothing will change. It's just clogging up the forums.

If Frontier has decided to implement a previous suggestion, they're already working on it. If they haven't, they aren't going to change their minds because it's requested repeatedly. The issue tracker has plenty of evidence for that. They're also not going to stop development of a feature just because it hasn't been mentioned in awhile. That would be a waste of spent resources. They may stop development for financial reasons. In that case, nothing will get it re-started.

 

[Angus McSix]

And if we continue asking for the same things, nothing will change. It's just clogging up the forums.

I don’t think what I’m asking for is all that difficult, really.

The heatmap issue shouldn’t be too difficult a thing to solve. I personally would have no idea how to do it, I’m not a coder of a game developer, but it looks to me like all the pieces are there, they just need to be assembled correctly. Or they could go the easy route and update the in-game codex to better reflect what actually goes on instead of leaving it misleading.

Ship interiors may be a bigger problem, I acknowledge, given how many ships exist in the game, and the larger ones being half the size of the Constitution class Enterprise from the original series of Star Trek. But it’s still possible. I’ve seen years-old youtube videos from interior designers that have actually designed the interiors of some of the smaller ships, so if THEY can do it, surely FDev can too, (or at least, hire them). I would gladly take ship interiors over new ship designs, because frankly, I think the current volume of ship variety cannot really be improved upon. Modules may be improved, but not ships.

with update 16, FDev removed the ability for us to plot hyperspace routes using a boosted FSD. I assume it was accidental, but with update 16.01 the problem still persists. getting that ability back would placate me, temporarily.