Discuss the AI here!

[Soliluna]

Have you even been insta-killed yet? As in dead before you accepted it was a Eagle vs Vulture death? Picture point blank range by a shotgun!

This "I died immediately" issue seems quite prevalent.

What you experienced was likely a bug, unintended behaviour. I didn't complain about rotisserie AI because I knew too, that that was unintended behaviour.

Sometimes the AI behaves in a way that leads to your instant annihilation and that is frustrating for you, sometimes the AI behaves in a way that makes it fish in a barrel - which means it is frustrating for me.

Just last night I watched a Pirate nosegrind a canyon - were I playing Tony Hawks Pro Skater 2 I would have been impressed. It happens, try not to let it bother you - and bug report all you can

 

[Seonid]

Reposting this again because new posters are entering the argument presumably having not seen it. Seriously, watch it if you think there's nothing wrong with the way things are.

Why do you keep reposting what is obviously a bug, when you have already ticketed it?

 

[Soliluna]

How would you propose getting those players who are now going to be facing NPCs which are always out of their depth because they managed to go through the combat ranks early on? Or those who get high level adversaries spawned after them irrespective of their skill or combat levels?
There are serious issues for other players in playing the game right now due to the difficulty in combat - its simply no longer enjoyable.

Wiping their save gets rid of a lot of other progress just to set things back to normal after all - its overkill as a "solution" and absolutely player-hostile.

You may not like idea AI which get harder the more you beat them or easier the more you die, but this is a game - and games are meant to be *fun*, and not a perpetual punishment.

SJA responded she will likely change the AI to adaptive.

This is what we are now discussing.

 

[Crazy Jedi]

This is the same kinda ridiculous hyperbole we don't need in discussions.

The AI missing a few shots to give players who are new a chance is not "rewarding regardless of skill", it's not pandering to players, it's letting players enjoy the game when they are wholly out of their depth.

Likewise, the AI getting better, giving me an equal match much like a player would get better and better? Excellent. Bring. It. On.

Well said sir. Balance is everything
the npc AI should be scaled to match the player. The only thing that worries me is, I'll happily take on anyone in my FAS and fight them off. If I am faffing about in my Asp then I'm going to be beaten up by an npc of scaled combat rank.... Actually on reflection that's no bother. When smuggling in the ole Asp I'm pretty good at the Sir Robin manoeuvre and it's usually my first instinct .... Having said that, my exit stage left strategy won't work against some of the crazy over gunned npcs I've seen destroying ships in 2 shots on twitch and vid. Some balancing definitely needed... I'm sure they'll get it sorted soon

 

[Nagata's Reaper]

Yep. that is obviously a bug, but the AI was fine. Lets not confuse apples and oranges. This is a bug ticket and if not reported, should be, but it should equaly not be used as a reason to nerf the AI. Lets not mix the two.

The AI fly the ships that are insta-killing us

 

[Phil^]

The "bug" is that the AI is spawning with modules stacked with engineer buffs, which is a problem with the AI that needs to be sorted. This issue is not only with weapons, but with shield generators, thrusters, and other modules.

A temporary fix until they have had time to work on the problem itself might be to stop AI from spawning with any engineer buffs for the time being?

 

[lysan]

Reposting this again because new posters are entering the argument presumably having not seen it. Seriously, watch it if you think there's nothing wrong with the way things are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZN_yZ07-18

"My Python has A6 shields with two A rated boosters. Even if I had 0 pips to shields, no weapon could take them down that quickly."

I had a similar experience with a Cobra draining my Clipper's shields, a 7C shield module stacked with 3 0A boosters, in a few seconds flat, but I was able to escape with very low hull integrity.

Raise you with, sidewinder in RES.
[video=youtube;-0g5byS42vA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0g5byS42vA[/video]

[video=youtube;fe91PkyFlkU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe91PkyFlkU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[bossbrigand]

Why do you keep reposting what is obviously a bug, when you have already ticketed it?

I haven't ticketed it, I'm posting someone else's video.

The "bug" is that the AI is spawning with modules stacked with engineer buffs, which is a problem with the AI that needs to be sorted. This issue is not only with weapons, but with shield generators, thrusters, and other modules.

The AI is performing as programmed. It's been allowed access to this equipment and is using it to its fullest. Is that a bug or an oversight? Hard to say. Either way, people are repeatedly insisting that it isn't a problem, that people affected by it just need to "git gud", and those people are wrong.

 

[CMDR Sir Edison Trent]

EVE is an excel SIM, not a combat space SIM, only tried it for 4 days and then it was just not my type of game.

If you were only there 4 days you did not experience any proper combat and i don;t mean blobs, i mean proper 1 v 1 or small fleet combat, yes initially the setup takes a lot of organising so i can see how new players may see it like that, i only played it for a few years, as when we had kids i just didnt have the time to put in, alarmclock ops, junk fleets, sov timers, drunk fleets, all good fun though whilst it lasted.

Still, EVE had the most harsh entry of almost all games, i can understand how people would give it up and goto something simpler and easlier.

 

[Cori]

I'll admit to not having read all 186 pages in detail, but I have seen some posts I agree with, that it is difficult to judge the AI by itself as much of the obscene amount of damage NPCs put out is due to problems with their modified weapons.

I am currently in the last stages of trying to fly an AspX to Maia and back for the meta-alloys. It's fitted for exploration, not combat; so far I have been interdicted four times before I even got out of the bubble (by pirates rather than PP NPCs). One DBS I handled with no problems, so perhaps it was unmodified; the other three (a DBX, a Viper III and I can't remember the third, but nothing big) had my shields down before I stopped spinning (submission not working each time) and had me under 50% hull before the FSD was usable again.

While I sympathise with the people that thought NPC combat was too easy before, this is too much of a change in the other direction.

It is not, when you get right down to it, fun for me to be constantly interdicted by NPCs that are more lethal than I am. I am not primarily a combat player, being more into trade missions and BGS work. If I wanted to lose fights and ships all the time I could just go into CQC.

 

[Soliluna]

Reposting this again because new posters are entering the argument presumably having not seen it. Seriously, watch it if you think there's nothing wrong with the way things are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZN_yZ07-18

"My Python has A6 shields with two A rated boosters. Even if I had 0 pips to shields, no weapon could take them down that quickly."

I had a similar experience with a Cobra draining my Clipper's shields, a 7C shield module stacked with 3 0A boosters, in a few seconds flat, but I was able to escape with very low hull integrity.

This is not "the way things are", this is a bug.

How many times you are going to repost it?

 

[CMDR Ellegon]

Sarah, before you go tweaking the AI up or down, please have the QA department investigate this thread in the bug forum:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=255442

I believe that most of the "AI is too tough" complaints are actually stemming from this bug, which seems to be mostly responsible for all of the posts and videos of player ships melting to AI opponents within seconds. Tough AI is something that most commanders can deal with as Brave Sir Robin'ing it is always an option, BUT it's not an option when you have NPC's with dozens of railgun shots per second pummeling you from full shields and 100% hull down to death faster than your weapons can deploy. If these super-insta-weapons on NPC ships get fixed I bet we'll be seeing a huge downturn on these "AI is too tough" complaints.

Thanks. Good job on the AI by the way. Shame that a bug seems to have given your work a bad reputation.

Once again, everybody who has been insta-killed should chime in on the bug thread linked above!!!

 

[Seonid]

Remember the huge fuss and drama over fleeing NPC's? Remember that it was sorted? Which engineer is it that offers the massive self-entitlement upgrades?

 

[bossbrigand]

This is not "the way things are", this is a bug.

How many times you are going to repost it?

It's funny how it wasn't a bug last night in your words and others', it was a feature and people suffering from it just needed to "git gud". Now you're deflecting it with "it's a bug".

 

[Kapow]

The "bug" is that the AI is spawning with modules stacked with engineer buffs, which is a problem with the AI that needs to be sorted. This issue is not only with weapons, but with shield generators, thrusters, and other modules.

Even if they had Eng modded weapons they would not work like this... This is out of the moddable range... Thus bug - I hope the AI keeps their Engineers modded weapons and parts as that is what makes the higher ranked ships fun to fight, but this is beyond any modding you or I can do as a player - thus a bug... Just for clarity sake

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

The AI is not too hard. The number of high rank AI is too high. It is a subtle difference but the vote is asking the wrong question.

i agree with you its the wrong question but disagree what question should be. it should be something like 'are there unbeatable npcs spawning who can destroy ships in seconds? and should this be allowed? i expect that to get about the same number of votes for both yes and no on the second question. the hardcore i want to die a lot because i have hundreds of billions to burn on rebuys will say yes. the rest of us without infinite rebuy cash who havent got the alternate cargo ship to earn a hundred rebuys at a pop in some safe journeys when needed will say no.

once the modded npc superweapons bug is investigated and removed then we can see what the AI is actually like and have this poll again and i think the results will be staggeringly different.

closer to 200 pages now. will we make it?

 

[Soliluna]

Hmm.. Adaptive also sounds not exactly justice for all... because the best way to win with hard enemy will be a fighting poorly, because AI adapt and lower the skill. It will not encourage to improving skills, because AI will degrade to player level.

deadly, dangerous or elite needs to be very hard and a player should adapt to them, not them to the player. A player should watch for them and avoid them if he is not prepared or skilled for fight. These ranks NPC's should be really big bosses what will require very experienced player or a wing. Of course a 10 or 20 minutes fight with ELITE Anaconda needs to get a nice reward for a player

However, low ranked could adapt for folks who are starting to play a game or just want relaxing shooting. Mid ranked for a guys are also not very skilled but they want something more requiring than low ranked.

People just need to read and avoid dangerous/deadly/elite, especially in combat ships if they are not prepared for a challenge with a 'boss'.

It's not that simple, you're over simplifying the systems programmers can use to adapt AI. Adapting AI to be more intelligent is a lot easier to program than the intelligence itself. The amount of things you can make them respond to is quite alarming - with very little overhead - unlike AI intelligence, which has huge performance hits for ever "increment" or intelligence you add.

 

[Nagata's Reaper]

This "I died immediately" issue seems quite prevalent.

What you experienced was likely a bug, unintended behaviour. I didn't complain about rotisserie AI because I knew too, that that was unintended behaviour.

Sometimes the AI behaves in a way that leads to your instant annihilation and that is frustrating for you, sometimes the AI behaves in a way that makes it fish in a barrel - which means it is frustrating for me.

Just last night I watched a Pirate nosegrind a canyon - were I playing Tony Hawks Pro Skater 2 I would have been impressed. It happens, try not to let it bother you - and bug report all you can

Your long stories, lose a few hundred million credits then come back here and say "It happens, try not to let it bother you"

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Thanks Sarah for insightful comments Before people falling into despair - adaptive doesn't mean here cutting down combat prowess, what SJA seems to mean is that when player runs with 5% away, NPC AI might have second thoughts about letting him go if they are far away or not to chase after burning ship after all. No, it is not that "adaptive AI" which is meant to make game easier to for everyone in AAA.

I think lot of people commenting don't realize we all want same thing - we want ED to be interesting, challenging yet fun. Some of issues people reporting aren't fun, that doesn't mean there will be nerf hammer which will nerf everything - yeah, coders actually can do nuanced tweaking so everyone are happy in the end - JUST LET HER DO HER JOB Thank you and fly safe.

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Your long stories, lose a few hundred million credits then come back here and say "It happens, try not to let it bother you"

What easy comes, easy goes. It is just a game. No need for such anger here.

 

[Kayweg]

Just a little snippet, not complaining.
Trade python, 5A shields, combat rank novice.
Interdicted by Python (deadly), submitted, 4 pips to SYS, 2 to ENG.
Boost away while FSD is respooling (mass locked), launching chaffs, carrying point defences. (intentionally not high waking, wanted to see how this goes).
Rebuy screen after approx 20 secs.