This is exactly the dismissive attitude that is creating all the frustration. You haven't encountered the problem, so you don't think it's a big deal. But others have...many, many others. And when you make a component for a blueprint spawn according to RNG and that drop rate is so abysmally low that it drives your players up the wall...well, that needs looking at. Content locked behind lack of gameplay needs fixing. But instead, you "sigh" and tell him that it's not really a problem.
"Do they play their own game?!"
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What?
I feel there are two different issues here. One is that stuff is needed for certain activities (engineers for example) that is only obtainable in a limited number of ways, none of them particularly engaging. The other is the pace with which one obtains stuff. When people say they are upset because they cant get a fully engineered corvette within a week of playing, one could argue that they are wanting a pace that is simply a preference not shared by others. That is subjective. I personally prefer a slow progression that rewards you after every session a bit, for a long time, rather than get everything rapidly and having nowhere to go afterwards.
The other point is the gameplay behind unlocking stuff. While that is also subjective, most would say that dragging rare goods back and forth 5t at a time for some engineer, or scooping cargo from super rare USS, or grinding the same thargoing ruin over and over is neither challenging, exciting or fun. So apart from the discussion about the pace of progression (which will never be resolved) I think most of us can agree that certain aspects need to be more fun.
Ok. Well as I thought, Fdev play with a different account than used in any public arena. That's good. We have company players in the game, flying their way, we just don't know who they are. (My supposition from the comm mgr reply)
What I like about this is the involvement, whether they play a style like "ours" or not doesn't matter, they are in the game, I rather like that.
What I don't get is why anyone should think it would affect the game development.
We know FDev progress the game at the pace of a snail, with asthma. The community guys can only play, they don't design. Do we really think FDev listen to the comm guys any more than the players? Of course not, the map is drawn, the destination is set, we just follow. Think about the lottery ticket article, fake news? Or genuine waiting to find? Either way FDev have displayed the ability to play it both ways in the past, why should that change now?
The sandbox remains open, the input matches it. Take it or leave it.
What I like about this is the involvement, whether they play a style like "ours" or not doesn't matter, they are in the game, I rather like that.
What I don't get is why anyone should think it would affect the game development.
We know FDev progress the game at the pace of a snail, with asthma. The community guys can only play, they don't design. Do we really think FDev listen to the comm guys any more than the players? Of course not, the map is drawn, the destination is set, we just follow. Think about the lottery ticket article, fake news? Or genuine waiting to find? Either way FDev have displayed the ability to play it both ways in the past, why should that change now?
The sandbox remains open, the input matches it. Take it or leave it.
verminstar
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Heres a weird thing...Ive worked on some the tallest buildings in the country as a high level window cleaner, working both commercial and government contracts...21 years in that line of work and not once did I ever clean the windows of my own house in that entire time. True story that, I take immense pleasure on paying someone else to do them.
It may well be entirely possible the devs might feel that way about this game they work on all day...then plug into all night? Thats a bit like taking yer work home with ye...this might come as a surprise, but not everyone does that.
I have no doubt that not all of them play...but its not something I put too much thought into. I do think some of them play or have played...maybe most of them or just some of them...what difference does it make? Unless its just a way to take a jab at them...it could be seen as a criticism of what they choose to do in their free time.
Im no fanboi or white knight, but even I aint gonna try and second guess whether any dev plays or not...regardless of whether they do or not, they are good at what they do or they wouldnt be doing it at all. Any issues I have the devs concern the game itself and if this is what this forum has descended to...well thats the reason I dont use this forum much nowadays. And probably wont again fer a bit if this is what passes as a hot topic.
o7 cmdrs ^
It may well be entirely possible the devs might feel that way about this game they work on all day...then plug into all night? Thats a bit like taking yer work home with ye...this might come as a surprise, but not everyone does that.
I have no doubt that not all of them play...but its not something I put too much thought into. I do think some of them play or have played...maybe most of them or just some of them...what difference does it make? Unless its just a way to take a jab at them...it could be seen as a criticism of what they choose to do in their free time.
Im no fanboi or white knight, but even I aint gonna try and second guess whether any dev plays or not...regardless of whether they do or not, they are good at what they do or they wouldnt be doing it at all. Any issues I have the devs concern the game itself and if this is what this forum has descended to...well thats the reason I dont use this forum much nowadays. And probably wont again fer a bit if this is what passes as a hot topic.
o7 cmdrs ^
Actually, A lot of the space station design goes a lot further back than that...
(someone updated the scene for youtube here but I think it still conveys my meaning...)
[video=youtube;hwEPNZl8VHw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwEPNZl8VHw[/video]
The Original:
[video=youtube;q3oHmVhviO8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3oHmVhviO8&t=1s[/video]
In fact, if you look further back to the older elite games that is exactly where a load of the space stations were lifted from... (not to mention landing with the Blue Danube...)
I think it's a terrible idea. Star Citizen has been (rightly) called out several times for being "great artists". I want FDev to be innovative, not a copycat.
Will, it's fine if you or your coworkers don't particularly feel like taking your work home. The core problem is, as you said, that it doesn't seem like FDev has a good grip on how the community feels about various gameplay aspects. If I may be so bold, I'd like to suggest that you get a group of well respected community members (we on the forums could vote on who gets to be on that group), and before you make any major design changes or add any major new feature, you check with them first and take their input into serious consideration. That way you will both benefit from viewpoints you may not have considered simply because they come from someone else's head, and the odds of community backlashes will go significantly down. If you're worried about leaks, you could make sure that they are all UK residents and get them to sign an NDA. The most successful space MMO, EVE online, does pretty much this (they call it the Council of Stellar Management) and it works really well for them.
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On the other hand, if you ran a window-cleaning business you probably wouldn't wouldn't be happy if your staff let your office windows get all manky.
Equally, if some of your employees weren't actually very good at cleaning windows, you'd probably want to train them and then figure out some way to let them practice until they were good at their job.
Where does the assumption they don't have playtesters actually come from ?.
I suspect it's a lot of cobblers.
I don't expect the developer to play Elite outside of business hours, to be fair. I am sure they love what they do; but bringing work home is a double-edged sword and I'd not wish that on anyone.
But. I do expect them to dog-food their content and consume some of it, most days, to actually validate changes. I have no idea how much the game is actually played in the offices, but I'd wager 'infrequently' outside of the dev/ community streams. Sandy has previously indicated maybe not that much. And I imagine if the boss isn't doing so much, the troops won't be either. The QC suggests a lot of changes are simply "in principle" as in the code is changed and this is assumed to have solved a problem. Which it may or may not actually have done.
I think at times, though, the community team is so focused on showing some new mechanic, they rush through using various cheats and suddenly they're doing the thing and this isn't even remotely reflective of what it might actually take to engage. So people end up with a completely different experience to what they see and start asking is there a disconnect, and so on.
Honestly the worst thing is watching the guys magic in a bunch of stuff and away they go. This is just me. My take. It won't be worth much.
I sure don't get to do that whilst I'm streaming and I have to go through the entire process and that's a really different outcome and whether people want to admit it or not, it does present the game with a very different pacing over actually going through the motions. I have no idea if there's any QC or playtest activities going on. I want to believe of course there is. Presumably there would be. The game is complex and what may simply be the outcome of too big to test it all.
In much the same way as the team just can't show half of what goes into a mechanic at times and simply have to short circuit. But if one does that enough, one can forget there's a path everyone else will be following, and that necessarily will not be the same.
But. I do expect them to dog-food their content and consume some of it, most days, to actually validate changes. I have no idea how much the game is actually played in the offices, but I'd wager 'infrequently' outside of the dev/ community streams. Sandy has previously indicated maybe not that much. And I imagine if the boss isn't doing so much, the troops won't be either. The QC suggests a lot of changes are simply "in principle" as in the code is changed and this is assumed to have solved a problem. Which it may or may not actually have done.
I think at times, though, the community team is so focused on showing some new mechanic, they rush through using various cheats and suddenly they're doing the thing and this isn't even remotely reflective of what it might actually take to engage. So people end up with a completely different experience to what they see and start asking is there a disconnect, and so on.
Honestly the worst thing is watching the guys magic in a bunch of stuff and away they go. This is just me. My take. It won't be worth much.
I sure don't get to do that whilst I'm streaming and I have to go through the entire process and that's a really different outcome and whether people want to admit it or not, it does present the game with a very different pacing over actually going through the motions. I have no idea if there's any QC or playtest activities going on. I want to believe of course there is. Presumably there would be. The game is complex and what may simply be the outcome of too big to test it all.
In much the same way as the team just can't show half of what goes into a mechanic at times and simply have to short circuit. But if one does that enough, one can forget there's a path everyone else will be following, and that necessarily will not be the same.
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The idea that a company that is engaged in writing software of any kind can operate without a test department is laughably ignorant.
That some people don't like the quality of the product is their issue, not one of a company not having a test department. It's just a stupid idea that shows how little actual knowledge of design, programming and testing these commentators have.
Speaking as software testing professional running testing efforts for decades.
Whoooo boy...try running that one past the DE/Warframe crowd, hah! Hah. Hah.
I agree entirely, mind you. This is disturbingly reinforcing my belief that someone in the Fdev offices is actually part-timing as a Warframe developer on the side....
I never said I dismiss something. I just pointed out that trying to pose issue being more than subjective one doesn't really help. There have been tons of cases when FD says - yes, these drops are too low, we will up them. And then there's been cases when they say they have been perfectly fine.
It is really a subjective experience. I just dislike 'grind approach' many people take when they decide they want something in game. As I have always said, I dislike that approach and liked ED design when it was trying to steer away from that. Yet people try to bring that approach in ED with brute force.
Truth is always somewhere in the middle. For players it is worth to report their subjective findings and for devs it is worth to evaluate and see if they can improve. I am not revolting against that.
All i know is i can go to almost any gaming forum and someone who is not happy will post "Do the devs even play their own game?"
Its not unique to ED or FD.
I see it posted regularly on the Fortnite reddit as well.
Its not unique to ED or FD.
I see it posted regularly on the Fortnite reddit as well.
You are correct. You didn't say you dismissed something. You just dismissed it outright...that's what a sigh is, a dismissal.
And there's no "grind" involved in gathering materials for a blueprint...until the blueprint asks for something that, in no way, would you ever come across in your normal game loops - and then locks that content behind a double wall (USS type & then materials in said USS) of RNG. If you want that material, the game forces you to "grind." Or use material trader.
I mean as in a person / group of people whose literal job is to just play the game as a customer would, engage in various features, and provide clear, directed, and professional feedback. These people need to also be in touch (as in familiar with, not necessarily in communication with) with the actual player base, and ensure that the way they play is consistent with said player base. The assumption they don't have this comes form the multitude of things that have been heavily modified / reworked after release due to being generally unpopular with actual players (see: pretty much everything regarding engineering), or things released that literally were 100% non-functional (see: guardian FSD booster).
LOL
I sighted at nature of complains how they claim to be universal and overarching and don't you dare to have different experience.People somehow believe if they make appearance to be important on internet their feedback will be assigned some sort of priority. I dislike that approach. That's all. I personally do not feel grind, but that's just me.
As for a game loop, there is no specific normal one, although only higher grades have most difficult to find mats. And even then I saw buch of my own missions offering me 5th grade mats as rewards just yesterday.
There is simple truth about change - human mind is very biased how fair is drop rate of anything. We can't objectivise it. That's why it is a struggle to get it right.
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