Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[-VR- Max Factor]

This does not disprove my point though. Is it not the current lore? Is engineering not a time gated power reward?

Yup. Something you choose to do, but is not required.

When a system close to my home system is attacked, I go into my ax ship and go to fight, it's the current thing on the news, it's games lore. I used that system for various resources and bases were being destroyed. Sure I can move away from there and mark the system with an "x" and just find another, but if that's the solution than that's one lousy gameplay mechanic. Yes you can fight uphill battles indefinitely without engineers, but I can't imagine it being fun or effective.

Again, something you choose to do. It is not a requirement.

I agree that the games progression is what you make it to be, it's not a strict path, like the example above. For me that was a mission that had to be done, it wasn't set by fdev but it was a mission. I wouldn't enjoy it or even think of it if I haven't had an engineered ship for it already.

So it is not a traditional progression based game. But you choose to treat it like one. Thats fine by the way. I am not questioning that. But you were the one that was questioning me about my own view.

Basically what you're saying is that it's not a problem if I play the game the way you want me to play it, if I follow your progression path.

You play it how you want to play. But you are saying that engineers is end game, it maybe end game content for you personally, but for many others and possibly most others it is not. It is just another facet of the game which you choose to engage in, in whatever way you want to.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

Yup. Something you choose to do, but is not required.

Like many other end game content in other games.

Again, something you choose to do. It is not a requirement.

How is this a counter argument for everything? You can choose to play the game or not, you can choose not to play the progression game progressively also, by just doing side quests all day long.

But you were the one that was questioning me about my own view.

When did I do that? If I did, I apologize.

in whatever way you want to.

If this were the case, I don't think this topic would exist. While I'm arguing for more methods of achieving a said goal, you are telling me to give up and do things your way or not to do them at all.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Everything is optional and not required. That isnt even an argument. It's gameplay. And in the case of combat - I now have to face pimped AI which I dont want because I'd have to engineer which I dont want and so it's effectively removed from the playlist.
And that is a bloody core feature of the game.

 

[Old Duck]

One of the most fun things I've used engineering for is to build super-cold stealth ships to run ganker blockades. I have no interest in building a cookie-cutter G5 PvP "god" ship, because I hate cookie cutter, and even then I'll lose to the 4 member gank squads. But a hull-tanking small and fast stealth ship is great fun and surprisingly effective, at least on PS4 where most gankers are just script kiddies with no actual skill. I know, I know, there are some true PvP experts who can easily defeat stealth (especially now that night vision has ruined visual stealth), but a surprising number of gankers on my platform are befuddled by a ship they cannot track and cannot target.

One of my favorite memories is when a ganker commed me with, "Where are you hiding?" as he sat outside a station scanning for me inside. I was sitting right behind him, LOL. There's more than one way to "win" at PvP

 

[dxm55]

Something like weapons crafting in Fallout 4 is more fun that ED engineering. Honestly speaking.

Just reduce the materials requirement, and then actually allow players to CRAFT these weapons.
Not pull a jackpot handle and then watch RNGeesus move / rev your wannabe-tachometer, fingers crossed, hoping for it to go as far as possible.

 

[Six6VI]

Something like weapons crafting in Fallout 4 is more fun that ED engineering. Honestly speaking.

Just reduce the materials requirement, and then actually allow players to CRAFT these weapons.
Not pull a jackpot handle and then watch RNGeesus move / rev your wannabe-tachometer, fingers crossed, hoping for it to go as far as possible.

When was the last time you tried to engineer something? The roulette god mod or bust mechanic was removed like, AGES ago! The stats now only go up until the next level is unlocked and eventually max out. Even on G5 it's only going to take between 5 (uber-lucky) and maybe 12 (worst-case) rolls total.

G1 typically only takes one roll to unlock G2, worst case 3 rolls... Way cheaper on mats.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

When was the last time you tried to engineer something? The roulette god mod or bust mechanic was removed like, AGES ago! The stats now only go up until the next level is unlocked and eventually max out. Even on G5 it's only going to take between 5 (uber-lucky) and maybe 12 (worst-case) rolls total.

G1 typically only takes one roll to unlock G2, worst case 3 rolls... Way cheaper on mats.

Scrap that rng crap. What does it add to the game instead of annoying grind?

 

[Brrokk]

Scrap that rng crap. What does it add to the game instead of annoying grind?

That's what the comment you were replying to said. They scrapped it.

 

[dxm55]

When was the last time you tried to engineer something? The roulette god mod or bust mechanic was removed like, AGES ago! The stats now only go up until the next level is unlocked and eventually max out. Even on G5 it's only going to take between 5 (uber-lucky) and maybe 12 (worst-case) rolls total.

G1 typically only takes one roll to unlock G2, worst case 3 rolls... Way cheaper on mats.

Uh? I've been at the engineering grind for a month now. FSDs are G5. Frags are G5. Powerplants G5. Power Distros at G4. Beams just recently G5.
Engines at 3, Shields at 3 too.

I am well aware of what engineering was like before. I was here since 1.0, and totally skipped engineering when Engineers were first introduced.
I thought it was the (add in really bad words here that would get me banned ROFLMAO) idea.

However it's been "improved"... I still think it can be made better.

I still don't like the roll. For two reasons.
a) It's engineering.... not witchcraft or whack-a-mole. Engineering is precise, pre-planned, and should be a one shot deal.
You have a blueprint, a plan. You follow that plan, it will produce a fixed result.

This isn't engineering. Just more arbitrary time / material sink gameplay.
It's already grind time-sink to get those materials. So you see, for example:
1 x Arsenic, 1 x Chem Manipulator, and 1 x Datamined Wake exception to mod your FSD from G4 to G5 Long Range.
But it's actually 5 of each... or up to 12 (yes I've actually experienced 12 rolls quite a number of time)

That's total arbitrary garbage. It's not engineering. It's a mat-sink, which equates to effort and time sink.


b) Why a dice roll? Why didn't they come up with a minigame instead, like Fallout 4, where you tinkered with the Materials to create something.
It would not be a bloody 12 rolls, 12 x wasted mats, time sink that angered the goddamned crap out of you.
But you might actually think, wow... putting this thing together is actually fun.

You did it right, you get it done once.
If you did it wrong. Well... all those mats are wasted. Do it again with another batch of mats.
You only have yourself to blame, not a dice roll.

 

[Six6VI]

In all fairness I haven't engineered anything for a while as I took a couple of months off (due to a Steam sale on Civilisation 6 (best version yet)) but before I left, all my mat storage bins were full because I've inserted material and data gathering habits into the normal flow of playing the game so I don't notice it.

Even my Datamined Wake Exception stock is overflowing, with little to no grind at all.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

That's what the comment you were replying to said. They scrapped it.

As I understand the random requirements to spend upgrades in order to advance to next grade are still in. That's what I meant. Not the initial total random in everywhere. That was worse, yes. However, it also was more exciting - at least to some players. It was about the random outcome, like why people buy lootboxes like crazy. It was in essence looty box style gambly stuff. Now that kicker is out and we got accountant-style thrill with the random amount of rolls to do before going up a rank. It's super exciting. How do I do "sarcasm" marks?

 

[Six6VI]

As I understand the random requirements to spend upgrades in order to advance to next grade are still in. That's what I meant. Not the initial total random in everywhere. That was worse, yes. However, it also was more exciting - at least to some players. It was about the random outcome, like why people buy lootboxes like crazy. It was in essence looty box style gambly stuff. Now that kicker is out and we got accountant-style thrill with the random amount of rolls to do before going up a rank. It's super exciting. How do I do "sarcasm" marks?

/s is fairly typical shorthand for /sarcasmmodeoff

I seem to recall arguing for a Fibonacci / Golden Mean progression, as in (1)1,2,3,5,8...

With the number of rolls to max G5 being no more than 8, but they didn't go for it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

/s is fairly typical shorthand for /sarcasmmodeoff

I seem to recall arguing for a Fibonacci / Golden Mean progression, as in (1)1,2,3,5,8...

With the number of rolls to max G5 being no more than 8, but they didn't go for it.

Doesn't sound so bad. I doubt I'll have the guts to grind to T5 and if it's true what I heard, it might not even be so important to max out.

 

[Six6VI]

Doesn't sound so bad. I doubt I'll have the guts to grind to T5 and if it's true what I heard, it might not even be so important to max out.

As mentioned earlier in this thread I've fully engineered 30 odd ships in both systems.
The new system is quicker, easier to get mats for and the results are (mostly) better.

If getting mats is annoying, check the post linked above for several streamlining tips

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

As mentioned earlier in this thread I've fully engineered 30 odd ships in both systems.
The new system is quicker, easier to get mats for and the results are (mostly) better.

If getting mats is annoying, check the post linked above for several streamlining tips

Honestly, if a game goes crazy with the stuff on players like ED, I'm perfectly fine with players cheesing it doing reloggins or duping or what haveyou. I know it's an issue with PvP but they should've bothered about balance from the start.

 

[Six6VI]

Honestly, if a game goes crazy with the stuff on players like ED, I'm perfectly fine with players cheesing it doing reloggins or duping or what haveyou. I know it's an issue with PvP but they should've bothered about balance from the start.

Unfortunate drawback of playing a game while it's still in development. Stuff changes.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Like many other end game content in other games.

lol. They are even remotely similar.

How is this a counter argument for everything? You can choose to play the game or not, you can choose not to play the progression game progressively also, by just doing side quests all day long.

Yes you can by staying in the starter area as I stated, but I that would be utter crap and the area is tiny. You cannot venture out into the gameworld as it would be suicide. Not like ED where you can go virtually anywhere any other ships can in your sidewinder with only tiny small amounts that are off limits or very dangerous, but still available if you so wish. There are no level gates in ED when there are for the standard MMO. There are no level gates for engineering your ship. You get in a sidewinder and start engineering as soon as you open up the engineers. Nothing is stopping you. But in LOTRO, to do a raid, nobody would accept me unless I was the required level and I believe they have a minumum level requirement.

When did I do that? If I did, I apologize.

When I said originally that I didn't see it as end game material.

If this were the case, I don't think this topic would exist. While I'm arguing for more methods of achieving a said goal, you are telling me to give up and do things your way or not to do them at all.

Nope, I have never said that once. I am all in for more options. You are making assumptions and they are wrong.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Doesn't sound so bad. I doubt I'll have the guts to grind to T5 and if it's true what I heard, it might not even be so important to max out.

It's really not. Maxing out T5 is for two types of people
- those who have been playing the game for ages, picking up stuff along the way, and have substantial material stores they need to do something with
- those with poor cost-benefit analysis

Three T5 rolls [1] will get you most of the possible benefit of engineering the module (and the materials mostly come in threes in the first place, after all, so it's just as quick to get three or one). That gets you to ... depending on the blueprint and exactly how lucky you were ... 90-95% of maximum engineerable performance compared with the stock module.

If you want to spend another 3-9 sets of T5 material on that remaining 5%, you can, but it's really not going to make much difference. You can quite easily at the end of the T5 dial spend three or four sets of material to get 1m/s extra speed, or 0.02MW extra power, or 1% extra DPS ... and most people don't stop to consider whether their ship actually needs that. I don't even have fully-maxed modules on all my PvP ships because I'd have to be a way better pilot (and regularly fighting other top-level pilots) before that sort of tiny edge started making a difference to the result.

[1] Or you can get 70-80% of max performance with a selection of T3 and T4 upgrades. The T3's are basically free in terms of materials if you pick up stuff as you go along, and some of the T4's are too. As with the exponential cost of the original E-D-C-B-A module set, the price goes up ridiculously for marginal improvement at the top end ... it's just that everyone also has enough money nowadays that why not A-rate everything.

 

[Six6VI]

This ^^ is a really good point that I forgot about having not done any engineering for a while. 3x G5 rolls is often plenty and I'll leave it like that, especially when doing multiple modules with similar mods, like lightweight on an exploration ship until I've collected more mats and happen to look in remote engineering.

If I'm at a specific engineer with a different blueprint pinned I'll usually max them out, however.

 

[Stellar Shepherd]

lol. They are even remotely similar.

True, because one is very well implemented mmo aspect in an actual mmo and the other is an attempt at an mmo aspect in a sandbox game

but I that would be utter crap and the area is tiny.

Pretty much how I would describe a sidewinder

There are no level gates in ED

Shinrarta?

There are no level gates for engineering your ship

No but there are time gates and material sinks, both very common and important aspects of mmos

When I said originally that I didn't see it as end game material.

I was speaking in general, I also didn't say it's actual end game content, I stated and I quote:

engineering being end game like content

With reasoning I stated above, power surge equipment that "unlocks" current lore content.
My point was that ED is a sandbox game that for some reason has MMO aspects implemented in them, without a proper missions to accommodate it. Obviously it doesn't have fully fleshed out mmo design, because it is not an mmo. But since it's not an mmo, aspects taken from mmos are not very well done (in my opinion).

You are making assumptions and they are wrong.

I think we're just spinning in circles over definitions, if you want to nitpick and say it's not a full mmo, I don't disagree, but to deny it's using mmo aspects, that's just not true.