Does anyone know if a mistake has been made with the Cannon High Yield Shell Experimental Effect?

Jynessa Loraeyn

J
So in 3.0, the High Yield Shell was adjusted after how horrific it was in the 3.0 Beta.

However, in addition to the 2.4 Rate of Fire reduction, the High Yield Shell now also imposes a flat 50% decrease in damage to the actual cannon.

This seems somewhat overwhelming as nerfs go, even while I agree it needed to be toned down.

Even at grade 5, an overcharged medium cannon now has 22 damage when High Yield Shell is applied to it. That's so poor that it appears to make High Yield Shell completely worthless.

I completely accept that converting a portion of the damage to explosive (to which hulls are generally more vulnerable) as well as adding an area of effect that can hit nearby modules is an extremely powerful effect and needs to be balanced appropriately.

Does anyone know for sure whether this is as it's supposed to be, or if a mistake has been made? It's been raised as a bug report, but as far as I can tell, there's been no word yet that it isn't working as intended.

I don't want to jump to conclusions either - maybe other things were changed that make the area of effect bigger, or something else - I'm trying to test out these half-damage High Yield Shell cannons, but it's very difficult to clearly see what's going on by it's nature... cannons excel at knocking out modules, and with the random roll nature of the breach chance, it can be hard to see whether a High Yield Shell got a good hit or not.

In any case, does anyone know for sure whether this is intentional?

I really hope that High Yield Shell keeps its place as a useful experimental effect. It doesn't have to be overwhelmingly awesome, just decent. This doesn't even look decent at first glance.
 

Bunkerkind Anni

Bunkerkind Anni
haven't seen an official word about it yet.
there is a bug report and at least two other topics.

50% seems excessive, especially when you consider that knee-jerk 60% Heat reduction from pvp relevant experiemental effects on railguns.
i wont touch my cannons until i its confirmed that this is either intentional, or just a misplaced decimal point (looks more like it should have been 5%)

in the meantime, i will switch to penetrator round dumbfires :D
 

Crimson Kaim

Crimson Kaim
As someone who used a 5 HYS cannon gunship I like these changes. It's EITHER shield/hull damage OR module damage and not just spam those insane bombs like SPR railguns. You don't even need to aim.
 

Ziljan

Ziljan
Good to know they fixed it from the feedback in beta. It used to be so powerful as to completely invalidate MRPs in one hit. Now I imagine it takes a couple hits to destroy MRPs and individual modules can survive a little longer. I wonder if the AOE still counts as multiple 22 MJ hits on the MRPs though?
 

TheSisko

TheSisko
This change goes too far. Its already nerfed due to reduced clip size.

OK, it does splash explosive module damage. Can you tell how much by looking at this?

Yea4TtH.png


All that's telling me - telling anyone who looks at that screen without using the upgrade - is that a stock cannon is doing 50% more damage.

It does module damage does it? How much? What's the splash damage radius? (we know it was reduced for 3.0). Does the radius increase with each grade? Does the splash damage increase with each grade?

On paper, its a useless upgrade, not worth expending time and materials to get, and certainly not worth using as a legacy module.
 
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Jynessa Loraeyn

J
Bunkerkind Anni said:
haven't seen an official word about it yet.
there is a bug report and at least two other topics.

50% seems excessive, especially when you consider that knee-jerk 60% Heat reduction from pvp relevant experiemental effects on railguns.
i wont touch my cannons until i its confirmed that this is either intentional, or just a misplaced decimal point (looks more like it should have been 5%)

in the meantime, i will switch to penetrator round dumbfires :D
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks - I couldn't see anything except the bug reports and the thread about HIGH YEALD SHELLS. We'll have to see!

Crimson Kaim said:
As someone who used a 5 HYS cannon gunship I like these changes. It's EITHER shield/hull damage OR module damage and not just spam those insane bombs like SPR railguns. You don't even need to aim.
Click to expand...

That's what I meant about not wanting to jump to conclusions - it all depends on its effectiveness.

Ziljan said:
Good to know they fixed it from the feedback in beta. It used to be so powerful as to completely invalidate MRPs in one hit. Now I imagine it takes a couple hits to destroy MRPs and individual modules can survive a little longer. I wonder if the AOE still counts as multiple 22 MJ hits on the MRPs though?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it comes down to how the areas of effect apply damage when they overlap. As a side note, if you make the AoE smaller, then it becomes dramatically less effective against larger ships where the modules are spaced further apart - too small, and there might as well not be an AoE at all. Not sure if that might be a good or bad thing - it does intuitively feel right that explosive cannon shells would be more effective against smaller ships.
 

Jynessa Loraeyn

J
TheSisko said:
This change goes too far. Its already nerfed due to reduced clip size.

OK, it does splash explosive module damage. Can you tell how much by looking at this?

https://i.imgur.com/Yea4TtH.png

All that's telling me - telling anyone who looks at that screen without using the upgrade - is that a stock cannon is doing 50% more damage.

It does module damage does it? How much? What's the splash damage radius? (we know it was reduced for 3.0). Does the radius increase with each grade? Does the splash damage increase with each grade?

On paper, its a useless upgrade, not worth expending time and materials to get, and certainly not worth using as a legacy module.
Click to expand...

If you go to the 'Read More' part about your cannon in Outfitting, it will give you the breach chance (minimum 60%, maximum 90% I believe for cannons, the best breach chance in the game as far as I'm aware) and also the breach damage, which is usually slightly less than the normal damage.

What it won't give you, as you pointed out, is the actual area of effect from high yield shell, and what proportion of Kinetic is converted to Explosive damage - presumably only the Explosive damage gets applied over the Area of Effect (like a missile), and the Kinetic is only applied to the centre of the explosion. That's just what I'd always assumed though, so I don't know any of this for sure - and I'd been pleased with how effective it was in 2.4. Haven't used it enough in 3.0 to know yet myself - but yes, on paper, it looks pretty bad to someone just looking at the numbers.
 

Spongedoc

S
Yeah, I suprised too today. That 50% damage reduction is serious. I think they changed in 3.0.2. But I can't find any official post about that. FDEV. Please give us some info about this...

Going to test the new numbers :)
 

AzraelDirge

AzraelDirge
ecob81 said:
Seems excessive to me. They were perfectly ok in 2.4 so why did they move away from that?
Click to expand...

They were arguably fairly OP in 2.4, and set to be completely broken in 3.0 before the fix. They could destroy an MRP in a single volley, and rendered hull tanks unviable.
 

Audaxxx

Audaxxx
Has anyone used them yet? My grandfathered ones are a total wasted of time and wondered if it was worth converting them or will they still be a complete waste of time after conversion.
 

Unknown Zombie

Unknown Zombie
Audaxxx said:
Has anyone used them yet? My grandfathered ones are a total wasted of time and wondered if it was worth converting them or will they still be a complete waste of time after conversion.
Click to expand...
I haven't used them. I had grandfathered ones too, and I just put them into storage in case they ever get put back to reasonable values again. To be honest, I didn't even use HYS for the internal damage, I used HYS because the effect made it much easier to tell if you scored a hit.

-50% damage is too much. If FD felt that HYS was doing too much internal damage then they should have just reduced the damage of the splash effect, not the damage of the entire weapon.

That's why I think this is a bug. I think they meant to reduce the splash damage and instead accidentally reduced the total damage. I could be wrong, though, because FD never gave any feedback at all about it.
 

Julio Montega

Julio Montega
HYS DMG penalty only applies to dmg dealt to hull.
The module dmg is the same (breach damage) as an unmodded weapon
and the special effect allows to damage multiple modules.

This effectively creates an interesting weapon for disabling internal modules
while not blowing up the ship through excessive hull dmg.
 

Bunkerkind Anni

Bunkerkind Anni
lol, just when i thought about necroing this topic too...

Julio Montega said:
HYS DMG penalty only applies to dmg dealt to hull.
The module dmg is the same (breach damage) as an unmodded weapon
and the special effect allows to damage multiple modules.

This effectively creates an interesting weapon for disabling internal modules
while not blowing up the ship through excessive hull dmg.
Click to expand...

in other words, the HYS balance pass was made with default hull resists in mind,
because explosive damage has a higher modifer against naked hull)

(kinetic damage factor = 1.25, explosive damage factor = 1.66 -> 30% more)

together with the high breach chance, the low hitpoints of internal modules and the added AoE, the overall damage nerf sounds legit
i just wished DEVs would communicate something like that,
eventually together with how MUCH of the damage is converted to explosive, since the damage type is still reported as kinetic (aka 50%+)
 

Julio Montega

Julio Montega
Bunkerkind Anni said:
lol, just when i thought about necroing this topic too...



in other words, the HYS balance pass was made with default hull resists in mind,
because explosive damage has a higher modifer against naked hull)

(kinetic damage factor = 1.25, explosive damage factor = 1.66 -> 30% more)

together with the high breach chance, the low hitpoints of internal modules and the added AoE, the overall damage nerf sounds legit
i just wished DEVs would communicate something like that,
eventually together with how MUCH of the damage is converted to explosive, since the damage type is still reported as kinetic (aka 50%+)
Click to expand...

From my experience pre-nerf and after-nerf,
the explosion radius after breaching has been reduced, too.
The most devastating internal remover afaik is dumbfire deep-pen missiles
(not counting in deep pen torpedoes, as they are too slow), but the disadvantage
is the targetting reticule of missiles and the slow speed.

Long Range HYS cannons fixed = sniper module removement.
Low hull dmg due to the nerf, but good results on internals.
It is an edge case of usability i'd say, if you need internals shredded,
you got a tool.
Since most people go to max. DPS the weapon is less popular.

Chieftain with double large LongRange 5 HYS fixed cannons shreds anaconda 'plants
in 2 volleys.
 
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satakuua

S
Gotcha. Good to know high yield is still a viable option for wrecking modules. My Gunship and Anaconda will get their cannon back.

Thank you, Commanders! Much appreciated!
 
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