Does the Enhanced AX Multi-cannon make Guardian weapons unnecessary?

[Neilski]

Having tried a wee bit of AX in the last few days in a shieldless Anaconda tank equipped with 4 EAXMCs (gimballed, so enhanced xeno scanner too), I've become curious about trying a more nimble ship like the popular Chieftain or Krait Mk II.

I looked at some "meta" builds online, but they all have Guardian modules (chiefly the weapons). I'm soooo not ready right now to attempt the horrible grind that is required to get those; I did it once for the GFSDBs and it very nearly killed the entire game for me.

For fun though, I mocked up non-Guardian versions of both of the AXI meta builds (Chieftain and Krait), and of course I used the EAXMCs because I can't see any alternative for a player who hasn't got a bunch of Guardian stuff lying about. (I chose the fixed versions, not for their tiny damage increase but so that the enhanced xeno scanner isn't required.)

To my surprise, both of the "basic"* versions do look worth building: the module protection came out barely lower than the meta versions, I was able to engineer both PPs to run cooler, I could add a thermal vent beam laser to the Krait, and most importantly the damage was very similar. Setting aside laser and flak, the AX damage of the Chieftain was around 10% lower, while for the Krait it was more than 5% higher with EAXMCs in place of Gauss cannons.
[*sort-of basic: no Guardian tech but still heavily engineered]

So I guess I'm wondering what I'm missing. The Guardian kit isn't obviously better by enough margin to justify the grind, so is there any reason for a new commander to bother with it, now that we have EAXMCs? I speculate that the Guardian weapons might permit a more hit-and-run style of fighting, but I have too little experience to know.

Advice/thoughts welcomed, folks - thanks!

Builds, for reference:
AXI meta Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vwJ9Lqq
AXI meta Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vibIYZZ
Basic Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vo0eT7v
Basic Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vA38NXz
(Both of my builds have a shutdown field neutraliser in place of a heatsink, because I expect it'll take me a while to learn how not to trigger it )

(Acknowledgement: without the reassurance of @BDelacroix in this post I probably wouldn't even have attempted AX combat without the grindy kit, which would have meant not trying it at all.)

 

[demonolight]

With fixed MC you need to have skill to keep on target to get any damage done to the hearts. Also you need to predict trajectory like a god if you are to hit the hearts without subtargeting which requires xeno scanner. I'm not sure if damage is enough to kill anything past cyclops, but then again you can always wing up for those.

 

[Neilski]

With fixed MC you need to have skill to keep on target to get any damage done to the hearts. Also you need to predict trajectory like a god if you are to hit the hearts without subtargeting which requires xeno scanner. I'm not sure if damage is enough to kill anything past cyclops, but then again you can always wing up for those.

Aha, thanks. Hadn't thought of that! So, better to go gimballed + xeno scanner, costing a utility slot. [Edit: good job I didn't build it yet ]

When you say the damage might not be enough for anying more than a Cyclops, I'm kinda confused - assuming you can hit the target (gimbals+scanner), the damage is roughly the same (and with fewer pips to WEP).

 

[Darth Wonko]

I'm running the Krait Mk II anti-scout build which has the EAXMCs - 3 x Large, 2 x Medium. I'm bouncing back and forth between a couple of Low AX CZs killing scouts as my intro to AX combat.

Whenever the Big Boys come in, I've tried to damage them with the EAXMCs and can't get past their regen. I'll drop one down by 3-4% and then it's back at 100% within a couple of seconds.

 

[marx]

You're missing a crucial thing, armour penetration. Unless a weapon has an armour piercing value larger than the target's armour rating, it will do less than its listed damage. Guardian Gauss has 140, large EAXMCs have 33. See this analysis for the hull ratings of the various interceptors, unless Frontier have tweaked the values since then. (Not that I'm aware of.)

Mind you, your multicannons will still do fine against scouts and Cyclopes, and you probably shouldn't take on the more dangerous interceptors yet anyway.

 

[Darth Wonko]

You're missing a crucial thing, armour penetration. Unless a weapon has an armour piercing value larger than the target's armour rating, it will do less than its listed damage. Guardian Gauss has 140, large EAXMCs have 33. See this analysis for the hull ratings of the various interceptors, unless Frontier have tweaked the values since then. (Not that I'm aware of.)

Mind you, your multicannons will still do fine against scouts and Cyclopes, and you probably shouldn't take on the more dangerous interceptors yet anyway.

I need to read up on the differences between the different 'goids. Guess I'll spend a little time at the Anti-Xeno Initiative site.

 

[sixhashbrowns]

When you say the damage might not be enough for anying more than a Cyclops, I'm kinda confused - assuming you can hit the target (gimbals+scanner), the damage is roughly the same (and with fewer pips to WEP).

You need to account for the armour piercing value. Harder interceptors have more armour which reduces damage.

3C EAXMC AP is 33, 2B G Gauss AP is 140 (Values taken from EDSY)

Edit: Too slow with my answer!

 

[Darth Wonko]

Don't you just love math?

 

[Neilski]

You're missing a crucial thing, armour penetration. Unless a weapon has an armour piercing value larger than the target's armour rating, it will do less than its listed damage. Guardian Gauss has 140, large EAXMCs have 33. See this analysis for the hull ratings of the various interceptors, unless Frontier have tweaked the values since then. (Not that I'm aware of.)

Mind you, your multicannons will still do fine against scouts and Cyclopes, and you probably shouldn't take on the more dangerous interceptors yet anyway.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The penny drops
I had read a shedload of the AXI wiki pages, but somehow I missed the weapons page ... Good grief.
Many thanks to you and the others who have chipped in!

So this explains rather a lot. I "helped" to kill a couple of Hydras last night at a planetary AXCZ (2 rebuys along the way, cough) but the damage I was dealing didn't seem quite as good as with the Cyclops, which pop relatively easily...

 

[Darth Wonko]

(2 rebuys along the way, cough)

Just two?! Damn... mad skills.

 

[Brrokk]

Having tried a wee bit of AX in the last few days in a shieldless Anaconda tank equipped with 4 EAXMCs (gimballed, so enhanced xeno scanner too), I've become curious about trying a more nimble ship like the popular Chieftain or Krait Mk II.

I looked at some "meta" builds online, but they all have Guardian modules (chiefly the weapons). I'm soooo not ready right now to attempt the horrible grind that is required to get those; I did it once for the GFSDBs and it very nearly killed the entire game for me.

For fun though, I mocked up non-Guardian versions of both of the AXI meta builds (Chieftain and Krait), and of course I used the EAXMCs because I can't see any alternative for a player who hasn't got a bunch of Guardian stuff lying about. (I chose the fixed versions, not for their tiny damage increase but so that the enhanced xeno scanner isn't required.)

To my surprise, both of the "basic"* versions do look worth building: the module protection came out barely lower than the meta versions, I was able to engineer both PPs to run cooler, I could add a thermal vent beam laser to the Krait, and most importantly the damage was very similar. Setting aside laser and flak, the AX damage of the Chieftain was around 10% lower, while for the Krait it was more than 5% higher with EAXMCs in place of Gauss cannons.
[*sort-of basic: no Guardian tech but still heavily engineered]

So I guess I'm wondering what I'm missing. The Guardian kit isn't obviously better by enough margin to justify the grind, so is there any reason for a new commander to bother with it, now that we have EAXMCs? I speculate that the Guardian weapons might permit a more hit-and-run style of fighting, but I have too little experience to know.

Advice/thoughts welcomed, folks - thanks!

Builds, for reference:
AXI meta Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vwJ9Lqq
AXI meta Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vibIYZZ
Basic Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vo0eT7v
Basic Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vA38NXz
(Both of my builds have a shutdown field neutraliser in place of a heatsink, because I expect it'll take me a while to learn how not to trigger it )

(Acknowledgement: without the reassurance of @BDelacroix in this post I probably wouldn't even have attempted AX combat without the grindy kit, which would have meant not trying it at all.)

Just about the "Guardian grind"; you can bypass it these days by using the Salvation modified shards or modified Gauss. I like the shards because they fire exactly when you press the trigger. They're very easy to use if you select trailing sights in your ship menu.

 

[Neilski]

Just about the "Guardian grind"; you can bypass it these days by using the Salvation modified shards or modified Gauss. I like the shards because they fire exactly when you press the trigger. They're very easy to use if you select trailing sights in your ship menu.

Mmm, I checked them out the other day and dismissed them because they did need the grind - is the Inara page wrong to claim that they need a bunch of Guardian stuff, including a blueprint? (My impression btw was that the modified weaps are 1 unlock-per-buy, while the normal ones are unlock-once and then buy as many as you want; so the grind is maybe less if you just need one or two, and worse if you need lots...?)

 

[marx]

I had read a shedload of the AXI wiki pages, but somehow I missed the weapons page ... Good grief.

By the way, this armour penetration mechanic isn't exclusive to AX combat, it has been present since launch IIRC. However, many players don't know about it. Little wonder, as it's not like the game tells you anything about it beyond listing the values. So, if folks see that their Cobra Mk III's medium multicannons don't do much damage against an FdL, their usual thought is to get a bigger ship with bigger guns, not to switch to a railgun.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

With fixed MC you need to have skill to keep on target to get any damage done to the hearts. Also you need to predict trajectory like a god if you are to hit the hearts without subtargeting which requires xeno scanner. I'm not sure if damage is enough to kill anything past cyclops, but then again you can always wing up for those.

Using the Trailing Mode for the aiming sights (via the Right-Hand Panel) sidesteps that problem - your reticle shows where the rounds impact the target rather than where you need to point the nose of your ship.

Mmm, I checked them out the other day and dismissed them because they did need the grind - is the Inara page wrong to claim that they need a bunch of Guardian stuff, including a blueprint? (My impression btw was that the modified weaps are 1 unlock-per-buy, while the normal ones are unlock-once and then buy as many as you want; so the grind is maybe less if you just need one or two, and worse if you need lots...?)

You are correct - Salvation weapons still require Guardian materials and blueprints, and are purchased a-la-carte with those materials / blueprints rather than unlocked and bought with Credits.

If you do decide to get them and head to a Guardian weapon Site, I suggest bringing a Scorpion to easily deal with the Sentinels and a good, long playlist of your choice as you fill up your material stores over multiple relogs. It may seem daunting at first, but it does go by quickly. Just remember to shoot out the panels on the spires, hoover up the goodies the Sentinels leave behind and scan the databanks (the big triangular obelisk things that glow blue when you drive close to them) - after a couple hours, you should have what you need.

 

[demonolight]

Using the Trailing Mode for the aiming sights (via the Right-Hand Panel) sidesteps that problem - your reticle shows where the rounds impact the target rather than where you need to point the nose of your ship.

Good to know, never figured out what that mode did.

 

[Northpin]

Having tried a wee bit of AX in the last few days in a shieldless Anaconda tank equipped with 4 EAXMCs (gimballed, so enhanced xeno scanner too), I've become curious about trying a more nimble ship like the popular Chieftain or Krait Mk II.

I looked at some "meta" builds online, but they all have Guardian modules (chiefly the weapons). I'm soooo not ready right now to attempt the horrible grind that is required to get those; I did it once for the GFSDBs and it very nearly killed the entire game for me.

For fun though, I mocked up non-Guardian versions of both of the AXI meta builds (Chieftain and Krait), and of course I used the EAXMCs because I can't see any alternative for a player who hasn't got a bunch of Guardian stuff lying about. (I chose the fixed versions, not for their tiny damage increase but so that the enhanced xeno scanner isn't required.)

To my surprise, both of the "basic"* versions do look worth building: the module protection came out barely lower than the meta versions, I was able to engineer both PPs to run cooler, I could add a thermal vent beam laser to the Krait, and most importantly the damage was very similar. Setting aside laser and flak, the AX damage of the Chieftain was around 10% lower, while for the Krait it was more than 5% higher with EAXMCs in place of Gauss cannons.
[*sort-of basic: no Guardian tech but still heavily engineered]

So I guess I'm wondering what I'm missing. The Guardian kit isn't obviously better by enough margin to justify the grind, so is there any reason for a new commander to bother with it, now that we have EAXMCs? I speculate that the Guardian weapons might permit a more hit-and-run style of fighting, but I have too little experience to know.

Advice/thoughts welcomed, folks - thanks!

Builds, for reference:
AXI meta Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vwJ9Lqq
AXI meta Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vibIYZZ
Basic Chieftain: https://edsy.org/s/vo0eT7v
Basic Krait Mk II: https://edsy.org/s/vA38NXz
(Both of my builds have a shutdown field neutraliser in place of a heatsink, because I expect it'll take me a while to learn how not to trigger it )

(Acknowledgement: without the reassurance of @BDelacroix in this post I probably wouldn't even have attempted AX combat without the grindy kit, which would have meant not trying it at all.)

Using the Krait mk equipped with 3x large gimbaled AX MC you should be able to kill cyclops rather easily. And even basilisk are doable IF enough NPC will poke at it helping with shields and with heart exertion.
You kinda need the enhanced ax scanner tho, to be able to target the exerted hearts and fully utilize the gimbaled AX MC (which surprisingly have almost the same damage as the fixed ones)

If you fight in the Planetary / Space AX CZ that happens near a station i would recommend to ditch the repair limpet and the cargo rack and fit 1 more mrp and 1 more hrp
You can always repair in the stations.

However, you may need something to burn the caustic damage - maybe a pair or rails in the mediums (turn on silent run, fire the rails till 200+, then turn off silent run and pop a heatsink)

Edit: and to address the thread title question: NO

 

[Neilski]

Using the Trailing Mode for the aiming sights (via the Right-Hand Panel) sidesteps that problem - your reticle shows where the rounds impact the target rather than where you need to point the nose of your ship.

I wasn't certain, so I had to go and check but yeah I'm already using that mode. It's probably why I manage to land any shots at all with MCs in fact. I have a vague memory of trying out the leading mode (no longer sure which is default) but it's so long ago it's a blur.

 

[Neilski]

Using the Krait mk equipped with 3x large gimbaled AX MC you should be able to kill cyclops rather easily. And even basilisk are doable IF enough NPC will poke at it helping with shields and with heart exertion.

Yeah, I think I may postpone the grind a bit and just try that out. Good to finally understand the whole armour-rating thing though - a minor detail which makes the Gauss cannons more than 4x as effective as the EAXMCs

 

[Brrokk]

Mmm, I checked them out the other day and dismissed them because they did need the grind - is the Inara page wrong to claim that they need a bunch of Guardian stuff, including a blueprint? (My impression btw was that the modified weaps are 1 unlock-per-buy, while the normal ones are unlock-once and then buy as many as you want; so the grind is maybe less if you just need one or two, and worse if you need lots...?)

Sorry, I remembered that wrong.