Does the Viper Mk III need a buff?

[Ziljan]

Yes it's a fun little combat ship if you like a challenge, but it is outclassed by most other small ships, and even the basic little Eagle Mk II is significantly better at dog fighting. It doesn't really have any combat/speed advantages over the DBS. It's basically like a small version of the clunky old FDL pre 1.5. Slow rolling, bad pitch rate, slower than the direct competition (Cobra III, iEagle, DBS).

The Mk IV version only exacerbated these weak points and solved only the power and jump range issues. Issues that are low priority for a police ship.

Turn rate for a Viper Mk III - 10.42 seconds
Turn rate for a Diamondback EXPLORER - 10.46 seconds

at 4 pips to eng, a DBExplorer can corner as fast as a combat Viper. Let that sink in...



My suggestion to fix the Viper Mk III:

-faster roll rate (3.5 seconds down from 3.9)
-faster pitch rate (9.4 down from 10.4)
-increase max speed by 10-15 m/s on boost

Why does the Viper need these minor buffs?

-It's a police ship. You shouldn't be able to outrun the police on foot
-a ship this tiny (60T) should not be as slow to turn as a clunky as a DBX
-it has the worst jump range of all the small ships, so it needs a niche, and that niche is Policing

 

[Julio Montega]

I have no problems with the Viper being faster than a FDL,
but the Cobra should still be able to outrun it, since the Cobra has
weaker defences, but a bigger engine section as seen on the hull.

I remember the time the Viper first came out, those 640 m/s boost were insane,
and they should stay out of consideration.

The eagle might be more agile, but the Viper has the more compact shape,
aswell as additional utility slots for chaffing.
Thus the Viper is a really good combat ship,
and can dodge a lot of fire due to the shape.
Staying in the firing arcs of fixed weaponry is not an option though.

 

[MottiKhan]

Yes it's a fun little combat ship if you like a challenge, but it is outclassed by most other small ships, and even the basic little Eagle Mk II is significantly better at dog fighting. It doesn't really have any combat/speed advantages over the DBS. It's basically like a small version of the clunky old FDL pre 1.5. Slow rolling, bad pitch rate, slower than the direct competition (Cobra III, iEagle, DBS).

The Mk IV version only exacerbated these weak points and solved only the power and jump range issues. Issues that are low priority for a police ship.


My suggestion to fix the Viper Mk III:

-faster roll rate
-faster pitch rate
-increase agility to match the DBS
-increase speed to match the Cobra

Why should the Viper MK III be as fast as a Cobra and as agile as the DBS?

-It's a police ship. You shouldn't be able to outrun the police on foot
-a ship this tiny (60T) shouldn't be slower & less agile than an FDL (400T) or even than the DBS (170T)
-it has the worst jump range of all the small ships, so it needs a niche, and that niche is Policing

I say leave it alone. It's sufficient for its purpose.

As far as being able to outrun a cop on foot. I'd hope most of us can. I'd be pretty embarrassed if Boss Hog beat me in a foot race and he looks better than a lot of the cops I've seen. It's almost a prerequisite to be overweight.

Cops should be given economy cars. The way they leave the car to go shopping, but leave it running is nuts. I'm not sure if they think it wont restart or what, but you'll see a lot of cop cars sitting and idling with noone around. Just visit your local fast food joint and you'll see plenty of them.

Maybe the Viper needs a foodie paint job so we can see that it's a cop. Of course, a good alternative would be to put the cops in d-rated Sidewinders.

 

[Arry]

I am not a massive buff, nerff or even balancing fan. I believe that if something has been designed, tested and then put into a game, It should be left alone. At the same time, your argument, that the Viper III is a police ship and therefore, should be as fast as the ships it is chasing, is a very good point. Maybe a Viper, police special, is required.

At the same time, if the ship is buffed, then it will put it on a par with other, better ships and so they, in turn, will need a buff. Which is not good.

Of course, there could be Cobras, used as security ships, if speed is all that is needed.

I do like my little Viper; but tend to look at it as a disposable combat craft. Flown in wings, it is formidable, which is where; I believe, the police, have the advantage.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

I just want my Beta 1 Viper back

 

[CMDR Corlas]

The Viper III is probably my favorite ship, despite all of it's shortcomings. Objectively, it's probably mostly a nostalgia thing, with it being my first purchase in-game. I would not turn down a boost to its abilities, but more than that I think it would be worthwhile going back over all the ships and fine-tuning them a little.

Just yesterday I was playing with both Viper Mk III and Clipper specs, and it's crazy how every way you can find to strip down the Viper will give you more speed and more agility, whereas the Clipper is the opposite; and can take more and more hardware without seeing a dent in performance.

I really like how much you can fine tune the Viper (and most small ships, really), but when they have to co-exist with other ships that don't run into this issue at all, it's changes from being a cool gameplay mechanic to a liability: The best-performing Viper is totally bare and has nothing at all but a big engine, whereas the best-performing Clipper can run all the goodies and can be slapped together pretty much without thought.

It seems like some ships were set up to be tuned around the "best performance is with total mass at 50% thrusters optimal" and some just disregard it entirely.

 

[Ziljan]

I have no problems with the Viper being faster than a FDL,
but the Cobra should still be able to outrun it, since the Cobra has
weaker defences, but a bigger engine section as seen on the hull.

I remember the time the Viper first came out, those 640 m/s boost were insane,
and they should stay out of consideration.

The eagle might be more agile, but the Viper has the more compact shape,
aswell as additional utility slots for chaffing.
Thus the Viper is a really good combat ship,
and can dodge a lot of fire due to the shape.
Staying in the firing arcs of fixed weaponry is not an option though.

I am proposing that the Viper have a combat spec speed of ~420. In any case, two ships that are equally fast, the one getting interdicted can get away quite easily.

The Compact shape of the Viper isn't the boon it once was. Doing some testing this weekend, I found Vulture NPCs with (fixed?) pulse lasers were able to drop the Vipers shields from 2.5 Km away with the smallest profile available: Facing the target flying backwards. It used to seem that the Viper shields could take a "direct hit" from >1.5km away and suffer almost no damage. Not so much these days. Not sure if the mechanics have changed or if more NPCs are using fixed weapons with flawless hit scan aiming.

In either case, the Viper suffers from a lack of agility and weak side thrusters for corkscrew dodging.

 

[Arry]

I am proposing that the Viper have a combat spec speed of ~420. In any case, two ships that are equally fast, the one getting interdicted can get away quite easily.

The Compact shape of the Viper isn't the boon it once was. Doing some testing this weekend, I found Vulture NPCs with (fixed?) pulse lasers were able to drop the Vipers shields from 2.5 Km away with the smallest profile available: Facing the target flying backwards. It used to seem that the Viper shields could take a "direct hit" from >1.5km away and suffer almost no damage. Not so much these days. Not sure if the mechanics have changed or if more NPCs are using fixed weapons with flawless hit scan aiming.

In either case, the Viper suffers from a lack of agility and weak side thrusters for corkscrew dodging.

Every player ship in the game has suffered, due to the improvements in the NPCs.

 

[ShimEnki]

I say leave it alone. It's sufficient for its purpose.

As far as being able to outrun a cop on foot. I'd hope most of us can. I'd be pretty embarrassed if Boss Hog beat me in a foot race and he looks better than a lot of the cops I've seen. It's almost a prerequisite to be overweight.

Cops should be given economy cars. The way they leave the car to go shopping, but leave it running is nuts. I'm not sure if they think it wont restart or what, but you'll see a lot of cop cars sitting and idling with noone around. Just visit your local fast food joint and you'll see plenty of them.

Maybe the Viper needs a foodie paint job so we can see that it's a cop. Of course, a good alternative would be to put the cops in d-rated Sidewinders.

Agreed and LOL..and splat out latte on my laptop..

 

[shadragon]

In either case, the Viper suffers from a lack of agility and weak side thrusters for corkscrew dodging.

All ships need weaknesses.

Vulture is tough as a brick, but has power limitations.

Eagle is maneuverable as a hummingbird on Red Bull, but low hull and shield points.

Asp has six HP, but turns like a cement truck.

Without weaknesses, we'd have a bunch of people tanking in shieldless FAS, as just one example.

 

[Nerwan]

God no, Cillit Bang would become a nightmare ;-)

 

[Siobhan]

Maybe the Viper needs a foodie paint job so we can see that it's a cop. Of course, a good alternative would be to put the cops in d-rated Sidewinders.

Maybe if they're second hand (Sidies and Viper IIIs) they should come with crumbs and bits of half eaten doughnut and (mostly) empty drink cartons all over the footwell. And you can pay a nominal fee to have it valeted...

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Yet another "buff the Cutter, buff these buff that"

I say what we can buff. Mines. Missiles. C1 weaponary. Missions. ECM. All the modules that noone uses due to various reasons.


The power of the Viper MK III is its speed and acceleration. It's manouvering thrusters are powerful. It is not heavy like the DBS or MK IV (CObra, Viper) and is cheap in addition.

This ship is perfect in my eyes. A perfectly balanced ship with benefits and tradeoffs.

 

[Ziljan]

Every player ship in the game has suffered, due to the improvements in the NPCs.

Other ships have other tools to deal with NPCs that aren't as readily available to the Viper: tough shields, bottomless utility slots, thick hulls, speed, agility, overwhelming firepower, stealth.

The only clear advantage of the Viper was the small hit box. If that's off the table, then the police ship is meant to be worse by every measure. So it needs a niche imo.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Yet another "buff the Cutter, buff these buff that"

I say what we can buff. Mines. Missiles. C1 weaponary. Missions. ECM. All the modules that noone uses due to various reasons.


The power of the Viper MK III is its speed and acceleration. It's manouvering thrusters are powerful. It is not heavy like the DBS or MK IV (CObra, Viper) and is cheap in addition.

This ship is perfect in my eyes. A perfectly balanced ship with benefits and tradeoffs.

Maneuvering thrusters are powerful? Maybe I'm running too much armor, but the side thrusters seem like garbage with any amount of hull additions at all. And the hull packages weigh as much other similar modules.

Can you post a build? And maybe message me some pointers? I am using fixed weapons btw (small burst and med MCs)

 

[Ddraig]

Dunno. Isn´t the Viper a step ship or a combat school one?
True the cops use it, but players use it as a fun ship to do nonsense in my opinion, not a career ship. If I am wrong, great.

Of course, I would not complain for a bit more of turn speed.

 

[kronslodo]

God no, Cillit Bang would become a nightmare ;-)

Was about to say the same...

Go check his youtube channel and you'll understand why... also some pretty awesome videos with mkIV

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Maneuvering thrusters are powerful? Maybe I'm running too much armor, but the side thrusters seem like garbage with any amount of hull additions at all. And the hull packages weigh as much other similar modules.

Yeah, armor will have a big impact on your performance. On a Viper III with A3 thrusters, every bit of mass over 60T is going to negatively impact performance. Given that an empty Viper III hull without thrusters or anything at all is already 60T, it means that every single thing you put on your ship is going to make it fly worse. (given the knowledge in your previous posts, I assume you know this, and you're looking for a good trade-off, but reiterating for people who might not know )

If other ships had this limitation, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but most do not; just the Viper III, Cobra IV, Diamondback Explorer, and Type-7. Seems to be a trend there...

 

[Julio Montega]

Given the current meta however, i'm sure a lot of people would vote for it to have a bigger powerplant
and more hardpoints for rails...

 

[Ziljan]

Yeah, armor will have a big impact on your performance. On a Viper III with A3 thrusters, every bit of mass over 60T is going to negatively impact performance. Given that an empty Viper III hull without thrusters or anything at all is already 60T, it means that every single thing you put on your ship is going to make it fly worse. (given the knowledge in your previous posts, I assume you know this, and you're looking for a good trade-off, but reiterating for people who might not know )

If other ships had this limitation, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but most do not; just the Viper III, Cobra IV, Diamondback Explorer, and Type-7. Seems to be a trend there...

Thank you for the clarification. I am going to run some tests tonight on turn rates on each axis with different ships mass mods.

Given the current meta however, i'm sure a lot of people would vote for it to have a bigger powerplant
and more hardpoints for rails...

But that would be a solution for a problem, lol. First off, I hate rails and everything that they stand for. And 2nd, as Corlas just showed above, extra mass from a bigger PP is the opposite of what the Viper Mk III can tolerate. And the DPS of the Viper is not the problem. It has the same C3 power distributor limitations as any ship its size.

 

[Julio Montega]

But that would be a solution for a problem, lol. First off, I hate rails and everything that they stand for. And 2nd, as Corlas just showed above, extra mass from a bigger PP is the opposite of what the Viper Mk III can tolerate. And the DPS of the Viper is not the problem. It has the same C3 power distributor limitations as any ship its size.

I was rather joking there, as i totally hate the current homogenous combat ship choices.
But to argue on the size of the Viper being a factor,
i guess the silhouette has lost a lot of importance to combat,
due to less people using gimbals or other weapons relying on
locking on.