Does the Viper Mk III need a buff?

[lefty1117]

I think the issue is not enough ships within a certain class. The cobra is 3x the cost of the viper, you can't really compare it. You get what you pay for. FD has been adding ships at different price points but hasn't really done much to add variety of ships within a specific price range.

What would be really cool is if FD will allow us to mod these ships past their original spec, albeit for exorbitant prices and/or sacrifices in other areas. So for example, pay a few million to upgrade a hardpoint or internal slot rating, but besides the cray price also have to deal with increased mass and the issues that will cause if you don't likewise upgrade the thrusters. etc. There's a whole new level of meta gaming that could be added with a ship mod system.

 

[sqzbox1]

Maybe the engineers will be able to mod specific aspects of a ship's performance. Let's see what they can do before asking for a buff. Personally I tend to agree with the earlier poster - that once released they should be left alone. Every ship NEEDS to be different - else, why have more than one ship in any class/niche?

 

[DragoonKnight]

Yes it's a fun little combat ship if you like a challenge, but it is outclassed by most other small ships, and even the basic little Eagle Mk II is significantly better at dog fighting. It doesn't really have any combat/speed advantages over the DBS. It's basically like a small version of the clunky old FDL pre 1.5. Slow rolling, bad pitch rate, slower than the direct competition (Cobra III, iEagle, DBS).

The Mk IV version only exacerbated these weak points and solved only the power and jump range issues. Issues that are low priority for a police ship.


My suggestion to fix the Viper Mk III:

-faster roll rate
-faster pitch rate
-increase agility to match the DBS
-increase speed to match the Cobra (420 combat / 445 bare bones and weaponless)

Why should the Viper MK III be as fast as a Cobra and as agile as the DBS?

-It's a police ship. You shouldn't be able to outrun the police on foot
-a ship this tiny (60T) shouldn't be slower & less agile than an FDL (400T) or even than the DBS (170T)
-it has the worst jump range of all the small ships, so it needs a niche, and that niche is Policing

Is this a serious thread?
The viper does not compete with the dbs or ieagle. One is four times the price and the other is rank locked. Of course they are going to be better. This is like complaining that your nissan sentra is not able to compete with a GT-R (dbs) or purpose built race cars that are not road legal (ieagle)

 

[Pomerlaw]

I upgraded my Viper III to a Scout back when that was a big purchase for me, and while I kept flying it and loved the range, now I would much rather fly a Viper than a DBS. I don't know what it is about the flight model, but the Viper just feels "right" and there's something about the Scout that I don't like. I've tried going back to the Scout a few times for fun, and I can never stand it for long.

+1
I sold my DBS. It drags like crazy, just try to stop one fast going full speed. I got the hang of it, but the Viper is more precise and easier to feel imo (thrusters feel better to me). It could use a little more agility though.

 

[DragoonKnight]

OK I tried a lighter Viper build. It was not much better than a regular viper in terms of agility. The turn rate was 9.9s as opposed to 10.5s. The roll rate was very similar about 4s. Side thrusters were noticeably better with a lighter build, but they didn't help as much in the turns when the ship was lighter for some reason. Maybe because the turn rate was already optimal with the lighter build? No idea.

Conclusion: the Viper needs a pitch rate buff, maybe a speed buff as well. Shave it down to an 8s turn rate with a mass at 110T and the ship would be more balanced with it's peers, at least in terms of raw combat ability. It would still be terrible in every other respect: Jump range, heat management, power management, overall speed, mass to accleration ratio

It is the 2nd cheapest combat ship in the game. If you want more combat ability then buy a better and more expensive ship. The Vulture addresses pretty much all the problems you have with the viper.

 

[Ziljan]

It is the 2nd cheapest combat ship in the game. If you want more combat ability then buy a better and more expensive ship. The Vulture addresses pretty much all the problems you have with the viper.

Instead of suggesting that people purchase an easymode ship, why not use your collective creativity to come up with solutions for the existing ships that are underutilized? The game isn't just about upgrading. Small ships exist for a reason. Some people like them for the challenge. Some people like them because most scifi movies feature small fighter craft as the heroes (except maybe star trek and firefly). If the only good thing you can say about small ships is that they are cheap, then you are probably dying too much in them.

Besides, if bigger was better, then iPhones would all be carried in wheelbarrows.

 

[Ozram]

On a side note, I wonder how much the VMIII will benefit from engineers.

 

[Zeta Legion]

Instead of suggesting that people purchase an easymode ship, why not use your collective creativity to come up with solutions for the existing ships that are underutilized? The game isn't just about upgrading. Small ships exist for a reason. Some people like them for the challenge. Some people like them because most scifi movies feature small fighter craft as the heroes (except maybe star trek and firefly). If the only good thing you can say about small ships is that they are cheap, then you are probably dying too much in them.

Besides, if bigger was better, then iPhones would all be carried in wheelbarrows.

What are you on about exactly? The Viper Mk3 is utilized exactly how it should be; a low-end stepping stone combat ship, on the route to bigger and better things. Like it or not, the Vulture is the pinnacle of small ships and it isn't likely that a ship that costs ~1mil maxed out would perform anywhere close to a ship that costs ~20mil maxed out. If you want to use a low-end ship, okay, but get used to having poor firepower, armor, and shields compared to more expensive ships.

Also, bigger IS better. It's why Desktop PCs have much more potential processing power compared to tablets, laptops, and consoles. They take up more physical space (and in the case of tablets/laptops don't have to rely on batteries) thus they can more effectively manage heat and use larger components with more transistors crammed in. It's why trains are better at moving cargo than trucks. And it's why the Anaconda can stomp Vipers all day and night.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Instead of suggesting that people purchase an easymode ship, why not use your collective creativity to come up with solutions for the existing ships that are underutilized? The game isn't just about upgrading. Small ships exist for a reason. Some people like them for the challenge. Some people like them because most scifi movies feature small fighter craft as the heroes (except maybe star trek and firefly). If the only good thing you can say about small ships is that they are cheap, then you are probably dying too much in them.

Besides, if bigger was better, then iPhones would all be carried in wheelbarrows.

The reason for the viper's existence is to provide a cheap combat ship to upgrade to from the eagle. Besides the vulture i can also suggest the ieagle and courier. I dont know why you are expecting for a small and cheap ship to be a threat to all the big fish in the galaxy.

 

[Ozram]

The reason for the viper's existence is to provide a cheap combat ship to upgrade to from the eagle. Besides the vulture i can also suggest the ieagle and courier. I dont know why you are expecting for a small and cheap ship to be a threat to all the big fish in the galaxy.

I disagree with your take on the Viper. Frankly no ship is ever just a stepping stone and if that's what it has become, then perhaps the op is right and it needs a change.

 

[SushiCW]

Viper doesn't need an agility buff.

Ships 5-10x it's weight and size need an agility nerf. There should be no situation in which an FAS or Anaconda outturns a Viper, or Courier, or even an Eagle. The fact that large ships are *more* nimble outside the blue zone than small ships is completely backwards. (See here for the depressing stats: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465)

 

[Ziljan]

What are you on about exactly? The Viper Mk3 is utilized exactly how it should be; a low-end stepping stone combat ship, on the route to bigger and better things.

That is a very narrow way of looking at the game. There are 29 ships in the game. How many are superfluous stepping stones would you say there are exactly? Should we all be in 1 of 5 top end ships once we have the means?

Open your eyes, man. This game is meant to be played for 10 years. If we're meant to be flying the most expensive fighter all the time, then the FDL cockpit is going to get old very fast.


I would argue that the only way to keep the game fresh is to have a "endgame" function/purpose/role for every ship possible.

 

[smiths121]

Well - I think the Viper is great as it is - combat and take/fetch mission ship early on. It was better at boosting in beta, but I seemed to remember it overheated at the drop of a hat (ok not as bad as the original Eagle build!).

I do not think there is a role for every ship in a players fleet at the end the Vulture is superior in just about every way to the Viper, but the Viper is maxing out at the buy cost of an unusable Vulture for the roles we have today. The Cobra is superior to the Adder in just about every way, not seeing too many calls to buff the Adder - it is also a great ship.

To keep the game fresh I think FD are planning to add more content (first person, different SRVs and ground missions etc) who knows the Viper may be the best bang for buck for the new content.

If any ship needs a buff its the Type-7 - I personally cannot find a use for it, at any point in character's journey.

Simon

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I don't think an Eagle it iEagle are much of a challenge against a good Viper driver.
It's quite agile and I see absolutely no problem with it.

Never had any issues with the Viper Mk.III performance, nice little Ship with excellent Shields for its size, adequate Firepower which it can fully utilize thanks to its good turn performance.
Overall, I think it always offered a very good "bang for the buck".

IMHO the only Viper that really could need a mild buff would be the Viper Mk.IV.
That's the kinda Ship that just doesn't want to turn and suffers from its undersized Power Distributor & limited Hardpoints in order to be really called a "Heavy Fighter"...

If I was given the choice between the Mk.III and the Mk.IV... I'd pick the Mk.III any day.

PS.
When it comes to NPC Vipers (Patrol/Authority), IMHO that's a design decision to allow CMDRs to actually have a chance to outrun them.
If all those were light Cobras running 440m/sec instead, the Smugglers would face quite a nearly impossible challenge to evade once picked up.

 

[Ziljan]

Never had any issues with the Viper Mk.III performance, nice little Ship with excellent Shields for its size, adequate Firepower which it can fully utilize thanks to its good turn performance.
Overall, I think it always offered a very good "bang for the buck".

The Viper can be out-turned by my combat spec'd Asp by over a full second (360, 4 pips to ENG). 8.6s for the Asp and 9.7s for the Viper. The Asp is a non-combat tug boat that weighs more than 5 times as much! Something is rotten in the state of denmark. I am not saying the Asp needs to be nerfed, 11 of the 29 ships in ED can corner faster than a Viper, but I am saying that it should be easier to use fixed weapons on a Viper than on an Asp. The turn rate on the DB Explorer is only 0.04 seconds slower than the Viper...


That being said, after messing around with the Viper and learning how to turn vs each opponent type (a completely different skill in each ship, and vs each ship), I am finally able to use fixed weapons effectively against all small ships and a few medium ships. Hurray. Still kinda fun, but only in a masochistic self loathing way.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

I say leave it alone. It's sufficient for its purpose.

As far as being able to outrun a cop on foot. I'd hope most of us can. I'd be pretty embarrassed if Boss Hog beat me in a foot race and he looks better than a lot of the cops I've seen. It's almost a prerequisite to be overweight.

Cops should be given economy cars. The way they leave the car to go shopping, but leave it running is nuts. I'm not sure if they think it wont restart or what, but you'll see a lot of cop cars sitting and idling with noone around. Just visit your local fast food joint and you'll see plenty of them.

Maybe the Viper needs a foodie paint job so we can see that it's a cop. Of course, a good alternative would be to put the cops in d-rated Sidewinders.

Most of those guys are grandfathered in. Relics of the past. We have some pretty strict agility and health requirements for any new hires now. Smoking isn't even allowed now. At least with my department

 

[MottiKhan]

Most of those guys are grandfathered in. Relics of the past. We have some pretty strict agility and health requirements for any new hires now. Smoking isn't even allowed now. At least with my department

That's comforting and a step in the right direction. The requirements should be applied across the board and those that are grandfathered in should be given a limited amount of time to comply with the new standards. Hopefully, more departments will adopt similar guidelines.

I was recently interdicted by a small town cop for going 70 in a 55. Sure, my bad. I was going in the opposite direction from her and found a safe place to pull over and waited for her to turn around and catch up. This town has 3 police cars. The other two showed up for this traffic stop while the originating cop waited in her car. Yes, it must be a major crime to speed on a lonely rural uninhabited road. I was driving my wife's Lexus Sedan. A pretty sedate thing. Still, it took the entire mobile police force to execute the ticket. The woman who initiated the interdiction was pretty big. She was gasping for breath after WALKING up to my car. The guy in the blocking car ahead of me was even bigger. His car was at a 90 degree angle to me and was obviously there to block my escape. The third one stayed in his car, evidently ready to track me if I tried to escape. Yes, my lumbering sedan must have been a threat.

I was amused since this minor ticket, which I got dismissed anyway, took so much force to execute. A Lexus LS is not a gangster car. It's a Japanese sedan. It was being driven by a middle aged Japanese man, which also doesn't fit the demographic of hardened criminal. It was on a two lane rural road with no buildings, so there wasn't a threat to residents or workers.

Cops would probably be more self confident if they were in better shape.

So I still say, give them Sidewinders until they buff up a bit.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-cop. I donate to their causes and am an associate member of two of their charity organizations. I just don't have respect for those that demand it without reason.

 

[Iskariot]

That is a very narrow way of looking at the game. There are 29 ships in the game. How many are superfluous stepping stones would you say there are exactly? Should we all be in 1 of 5 top end ships once we have the means?

Open your eyes, man. This game is meant to be played for 10 years. If we're meant to be flying the most expensive fighter all the time, then the FDL cockpit is going to get old very fast.


I would argue that the only way to keep the game fresh is to have a "endgame" function/purpose/role for every ship possible.

That would indeed be my ideal scenario, but it is very difficult to realize that.
I recently bought a Viper again, just to see if I could still take out elite Anacondas and Pythons in them and it still is very much possible.
The problem is it takes much more time doing this in my Viper than using my Vulture or FDL.
The latter are simply superior combat vessels and that is of course not surprising considering their specs.
One could argue that the Viper can take out smaller ships quickly enough, but once you have an FDL or a Vulture there is no real use for a Viper anymore.

I think the Viper 3 and 4 are very good looking ships.
I especially love the Mark 4, but I see no real use for it now that I have an FDL.
Even my Vulture is starting to collect dust, because the FDL is simply the most awesome machine to do combat in.

What I would love to see is the introduction of missions that forced you to fly certain ships (provided by the mission giver).
This would liven up the game, force you out of your comfort zone and create much more diversity in how you experience missions.
If you for example have gotten used to flying an FDL for the last 6 months and a mission demands that you now use a Viper you will be much more on edge and exited about the mission.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

This thread inspired me to go dust off my Viper and kit it out with a full load of fixed multicannons. Holy crap is that fun! But also, holy crap it pitches slow.

I really would like to see all the ships gone over again, now that the game has had some time to mature a little. It's not good for a games developers to be constantly adjusting stats on things, but the opposite extreme isn't good either.

Like I said before, I think all ships need some of the give-and-take in regards to outfitting choices that the small ships have, and (aside from jump range, which all ships deal with) that's simply not the case currently. It's not a matter of nerfing more expensive ships, it's that it makes equipping them far less interesting, and far less a meaningful choice. That this would end up effecting the relative balance or imbalances we see between some ships is really just a side perk.

 

[CMDR Mitch Gant]

I'm with you. Buff the Viper. Whilst doing so, cut her reverse speed to 50% of the actual level. You'll then have a great ship without the current hassle of 85ers thinking they're god by running reverse circles.