Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed - because boost / switch off was used as a "can't catch me" escape method....
Doesn't any one think breaking after boosting is a dumb idea?
- Thread starter Bad Move
- Start date
Indeed - because boost / switch off was used as a "can't catch me" escape method....
Of what i understand it, they don't like the idea of maintaining boost speed with f.a. off, because it makes it impossible to kill an other player.
Why not simply allowing the hunter to maintain boost speed, with f.a. on?
powerdistributor and pips management becoming trivial with that.
plus, like seen in above linked video, even more jousting.
boost-FAOFF flip-flying backwards-use pitch and vertical thrusters to keep weapons on enemy is already one of the most used combat manouvers.
I'm not thinking it would be a generally bad idea for a game (even if i would prefer a fully newtonian flightmodel than), but i can clearly see that the implications are much more complicated than it looks on first view. and i actually think the way ED has implemented this limited, while not making any sense in terms of physics, adds a lot of fun to the game.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... because that treats the attacker and target differently.
Hi, sorry it took so long to reply, reall life got in the way.
What u say could work too.
And easier than what i'm proposing to implement to the game. As a matter of fact, with that sort of flight system, u could just as well, ceep the engine boost we have now, with the difference being, the ship sould maintain speed.
Allso, i had come across an other game, called "evochron mercenary" before bying elite, but, it was still underdeveloped. Not as pretty as elite. But, i like it's flight system, much better than elite's. I sould b able to buy the game, in a week or, two.
I don't plan to uninstall elite, nor i feel like i waisted my money on it. But, i can't bring my self to ingage to a space game, where i must constantly do the boost thing those fools think is a good game mechanic.
Allso. I strongly suspect, judging by the ammount of negative comments, following the e3 announcement i did read. In the comment section of one of obsidian ant's vid's, and fb. This engine boost system may bother people who don't even know it.
I mean, think about it. U jump in to a rez, after some digging, u find a target at 9 klm (modified grade a sensors) and then u pip the engines, and boost... And boost... There is a beautyfull blue gas giant outside the window. U wanna take a look? o.k. Just don't forget to boost, and it's not like i could rest my thump on the boost button, and let the ship ceep on boosting oh, no... I guess that would break immersion... U mess up entering a planet, and broke gliding 50 klm from ur destinetion? Don't u mind, because u like the view? would u like to activate the new camera, and just gaze on the horizon?
Sure. U could do that. But, u wont, will u? because somebody has to stay behind and ceep on bashing the god damned engine boost button...
I am very close to loose control, and let my self build an other great wall of text, just saying how much i dislike that so important aspect of the game. And the reason of that is, i really like what frontier is trying to do, and elite is a very beautyfull game, with a vast galaxy to explore.
I hope enough people raise their voices.
Well actually when you think about it the ED flight model is probably more likely to happen than full free flowing newtonian flight.
Have a think about it.....We are currently in an age where the vast majority of cars have cruise control, planes and ships have 'autopilot' and will shortly have self driving cars on the roads.
Now why would we allow any tom and harry be able to pilot a ship that theoretically could easily be transformed into a world busting rock. Come on....All spaceships would have limits placed upon them and in reality the flight model in ED passes more stress tests on practicability than most so call space sims...Especially given that you don't have standard flight between celestial bodies so you don't need to be able to infinitely accelerate etc.
And I love the whole Newtonian flight thing but even I can see that it wouldn't work for the 'masses' once space flight became personal use.
Have a think about it.....We are currently in an age where the vast majority of cars have cruise control, planes and ships have 'autopilot' and will shortly have self driving cars on the roads.
Now why would we allow any tom and harry be able to pilot a ship that theoretically could easily be transformed into a world busting rock. Come on....All spaceships would have limits placed upon them and in reality the flight model in ED passes more stress tests on practicability than most so call space sims...Especially given that you don't have standard flight between celestial bodies so you don't need to be able to infinitely accelerate etc.
And I love the whole Newtonian flight thing but even I can see that it wouldn't work for the 'masses' once space flight became personal use.
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turn flight assist of - and try (will require change in the bindings to toggle mode)
Read my posts, before replying.
I am not suggesting full newtonian physics sould b applyed to elite. Ceep boost speed, but, either remove boost all together, and make boost speed the new top engine speed, like FrogsFriend suggests, and replace bosst with something simular, i would suggest. Or, replace the flight system we have, with something different, like i suggest.
Here it goes again.
Basically, imagine the same thing we have now, but, throttle and boost button, behave differently on a hotas like the one i have, set to neutral at 50% full reverse at 0% and full speed ahead with throttle to 100%
Let's start with throttle at 100%
Ur ship then, moves str8 ahead at it's not boosted top speed. If then, u press the boost button, instead of boosting, it gradually accelerates ur ship, using power form engines capacitor in the process, untill either, ur ship reaches top speed, which could b the same speed we get now with engine boost, or, runs out of power in the engine's capacitor. And let's call that new feature "engine".
Allso, i think it would b a cool feature to have the same boost we get now, but maintaining speed, if, u double tab the engine button, Let's call that "engine boost".
That alone would b good enough to ceep me playing the game. But, after taking under concideretion, the rest of the aspects in a navigation system for space ships moving in empty space, with the capabilties and characteristiks of the ones we allready have in elite. Adding all that speed, with out adjusting manueverabilty options to match. Would ruin the game.
But, before going there, let me give u an example of how acceleration sould work.
Let's take a hypothetical space ship and call it "water snake" It's top speed is 100mps 200mps with boost. Undock off a platform, in a station. using my flight system. Ceep fligh assist on, and burn the vertical thrusters to move up. With my system, vertical, lateral, forward and reverse top speed, sould b the same, but, with different acceleration rates. 10mps for forward, backword, 7.5 for up and down, 5 for lateral, for example, and 12.5mps or, something for when flight assist off, to all directions, at the same acceleration rates. So, u may notice some difference right there.
But then, after movving to position with the exit str8 ahead, flight assist on and throttle to 50&(neutral) u decide to double tab the engines button, to make a dramatic exit, ur ship boosts like it used to, but, doesn't slow down after reaching boost speed. And u come face to face with a wall approaching u at full speed. then u throttle all the way back, and double tab the engine button again, only this time, that activates an other feature, called "breaks" adding the same manueverabilty u get now, after boosting, but, while dicellerating the ship, at the same rates it accelerates, when boosting, untill ur ship comes to a full stop, runs out of power in the engines capacitor or hit the wall, which ever happens first.
Any way, u pick up ur pieces, while u r informed u gained a 200credit fine for reckless flying, and move out the mail slot.
Now, let's say, after gaining some distance to the station, u decide to throttle to 50% and pull the stick, for no apparent reason.
ur ship then, turnes it's nose up with an acceleration rate, of 2 degrres per second per second. Meaning 2degrees the first second, 4 at the second and so on, untill it reaches it's top pitching speed, let's make that 20 degrees.
Now, realish the stick, and let ur ship come to a full stop, and twist the stick, to make ur ship yawn. What ur ship does then, is yawning to the side, at a .5 degrees per second, acceleration rate, but, ceeps on turning, untill it reaches the same angular speed with pitching, unlike what it does now, the same, but with at an intermidium rate applyed to rolling, with variety applyed, when ever desired.
Now throttle to 100& ur ship sould accelerate, with the same acceleration rate we have now, to the same top speed and the same manueverability, depending on ur throttles position.(75% turning speed) And press the engine button, what ur ship does then, is to accelerate, at the same acceleration rate u get when throttling full ahead, untill it reaches the speed u have now, after boosting. Unless, u forgot to putt four pips to engine. So, ur ship stops accelerating after depleting the capacitor and maintains it's current speed. Now, if u r really not paying attencion, and let ur thump rest on the engine button, it doesn't matter, if, there is a pip in the engine, and recharges to full capacity, the engines wont burn, untill u releash, and press the said button.
If, instead u throttle 75& u get to ceep the same turning speed u have now, with a quarter of the turning boost, u have when boosting, now. And accelerate with half the acceleration rate u have now, with out boosting.
During all that, ur manueverability is increased to 50% of what u get when u boost today, but, only, untill u reach top speed, then ur manueverability is reduced to what u get when throttling full ahead, with out pressing the engine button.
So much for acceleration and manueverability.
Now we come to diceleration, and some added manueverability.
Still with me?
GOOD!
Because, now comes the fun part.
To b honest, up untill i started typing a previous... Less, reader friendly version of this reply, i hadn't reallised there was a flaw to my reasoning, regarding dicelleration.
I allready mentioned the breaks, but, i didn't have a clear image in my head, of how to slow back down.
U see... Once u reach top speed with my system, engine thrust included, ur throttle range has to stretch to fit the extra velocity, and just now i reallised there can b use for the engine button to reverse as well.
Sorry for being a bit chaotic today, its just one of those days... I miss elite... I really do. But, after seviour overuse of the dedicated button bound to engine boost, it has worn out, and doesn't responces like it used to...
Anyway...
dicellerating.
Ur throttle's range stretches to include the extra momentum. So, the new turning speed after using the new boost, sould b at 62.5& throttle, while the new 75& is the old top speed before boosting.
Unless, if ever all that i am talking about is taken under concidirataion, decides to tweak with some sort of thrust speed/engine speed deadzone (thrust speed is what u get, before pressing the engine speed. And since we r talking about space ships, the same thrust sould b able to b applyed to all directions.) I can see how that could work.
And one last thing. if, frontier would give us something like what i'm saying, it wouldn't b too much of a stretch, to add yet an other feature. Actual breaks. delete what i said before, about double tabing for space breaks.
Instead. When thruttle below 50% and press engine/break button. Use power from the capacitor to double the ship's dicelleration rate, while producing heat, because of overloading the ship's thrusters.
Allso, i guess it goes with out saying, heat sould allso b a minor factor to concider, when burning the engines, and a little bit more, for when boosting.
And the new boost, souldn't have a minimmum requirement of power to burn, but use any power available for a relative reasolt.
That's about it, actually, now tell me again about what limits sould b applyed to military grade space ships, armed with all the guns they can curry.
And after reaching top speed, stop using power from the capacitor, and produce heat. But, as i discribe on an other post i just finished, the extra velocity must b matched by more maneuverability.
I think vertical, lateral, forward and reverse thrusters sould have the same top speed. But, with different acceleration rates. A few new features to add manueverability, a feature i like to call "engine" to control the big thrusters at the back of the ship. For both gradual and smooth acceleration, or, boosting to top speed.
...U know... The stuff u nead to make a space game. The way physics feel like in elite is more like u r a captain of a submarine than a commander of a space ship.
Really?
Ok. I didn't actually get a picture of what you are describing as your flight model in your post. It's all over the place and a bit difficult to follow. I'll have a re-read later and see if I can see what you are describing.
However you sound quite angry about the flight model.... Sure it's not perfect but still one of the best ones out on the market right now.
Evochron legacy has a more accurate space ship flight model, if you turn flight assist off in that game you will accelerate continuously in whatever direction you apply thrust and if you continue to apply thrust your velocity will continue to increase.
There has been some discussion on that games forum about the top speed attainable doing this, iirc there is no real top limit.
There has been some discussion on that games forum about the top speed attainable doing this, iirc there is no real top limit.
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Sorry, not with this flight model, maybe another game down the road.
Didn't you already make a thread about this?
Or an i remembering wrong...? Lol
Edit: oh. Nope, you did make one.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/355787-Renovated-normal-space-navigation-is-needed. Got me doubting my own memory there.
The "space brake" is daft on paper, but in practice it stops fights escalating in to really boring jousts.
If elite was entirely PvE or Solo, with no PvP in the main game at all, then I'd be up for more I-War style flight mechanics, because it is just better, by alot, but as soon as you add PvP in to the mix, it needs to be limited or its just bad. Very bad.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Didn't notice this post untill just now.
Yes, i did post one more thread about this subject in those forums before.
Other than that, i allso initiated a few conversations,in you tube, and at least one in face book.
And allthough i haven't played elite for about a half of month, or, something. I think i would have heard about any radical changes in elite's flight system. If not anything else. Obsidian ant would certainely make a vid about it.
So... I am pretyy sure, elite dangerous normal space navigation system, still sucks. And since haven't replaced elite with a new game, i have a lot of time on my disposal to start new threads, about the same subject.
And about pvp getting boring, if, space auto-brakes go away.
As i say on other posts. I haven't played I-war to know how that works. But, if u read my reply to Madrax573 on the second page of this thread, u would get an idea of what i'm saying. Ceep boost speed and make it the new top speed, add more manueverability removing the need to ceep pips in engines to maintain top speed, and if, u do it right. Pvp could b a better expirience than what u get now.
But. I must admitt, i had quit elite, before doing any pvp. But, i can't imagine how maintaining boost speed, and adding manueverability would make pvp any worst than it is now.
If, u do read what i'm saying, there is at least one scenario i didn't cover. Let me know if, u want more info.
I was going to throw a bakery rolling pin. But a strop would do too.
Sorry about my spelling, i know the difference between brake and break.
"breaking after boosting, brakes immerssion."
Do i have it right now?
Totally agree with OP, but I would do it simple:
FAOFF = Total Newtonian physics.
It also seems obvious to me, and very strange that it has not been implemented immediately.
I mean that if the engines are 100%, even without boost, there is a continuous acceleration, which would still diminishing, as the thrust would sooner or later equal the resistance of the ship's mass.
Yes, it might be that once the FA is reactivated, the engines of the ship will need a quarter of an hour to slow down, but if it is made to escape a threat it is fun and above all realistic and really dangerous (overheating, crashing on an asteroid etc ..).
Each pilot makes him at his own risk and danger, and the best of them do not go beyond the point of no return.
As usual I repeat that greater freedom of choice is more fun, but ... wait and hope.
I personally did not play for months, uninstalled game, pilot canceled, lost confidence in a product I thought was great, but it took a too arcade way.
So please forgive me if I put my opinion in the pile.
I could possibly return in the third season if:
oh..no. Truly too many things should change ...
FAOFF = Total Newtonian physics.
It also seems obvious to me, and very strange that it has not been implemented immediately.
I mean that if the engines are 100%, even without boost, there is a continuous acceleration, which would still diminishing, as the thrust would sooner or later equal the resistance of the ship's mass.
Yes, it might be that once the FA is reactivated, the engines of the ship will need a quarter of an hour to slow down, but if it is made to escape a threat it is fun and above all realistic and really dangerous (overheating, crashing on an asteroid etc ..).
Each pilot makes him at his own risk and danger, and the best of them do not go beyond the point of no return.
As usual I repeat that greater freedom of choice is more fun, but ... wait and hope.
I personally did not play for months, uninstalled game, pilot canceled, lost confidence in a product I thought was great, but it took a too arcade way.
So please forgive me if I put my opinion in the pile.
I could possibly return in the third season if:
oh..no. Truly too many things should change ...
Try evochron legacy, i downloaded it's demo yesterday, and i think i will b buying it at monday.
But, ceep in mind, so far, i haven't found a way to switch it's flight assist. completely off. When u off the assist, the spacecraft behaves as it sould, but, u still have control of roll, pitch snd msybr vertical and lateral thrusters, the same way with assist on. I am pretty sure this only applyes to roll and pitch, but i can't tell for sure yet.
Maybe i will edit this post later.