Elite / Frontier Elite 4: RPG, FPS, Simulation? What?

[DrBaggy]

Agreed: the original Elite had elements of all of these, before the idea of individual pc genres if memory serves me. It was a 3d action/shooter when most games were 2D, a simulation more based on real physics than any similar game since (?), and a RPG in the sense that your ship was the character, upgrading weapons and advancing to another level in the way RPG's do. Admittedly there was no automatic increase in skill, that just came from hours and hours of dogfighting/failed manual docking...but isn't that better?

Ok, somebody's going to correct me on this, but it remains that Elite/Frontier/FFE was way ahead of it's time. However good Elite 4 is, the world has moved on so much I'm fearful it will disappoint. But delighted to be proved wrong!

 

[DraQ]

a simulation more based on real physics than any similar game since (?)

Not really. Elite's physics is the simplest possible reactive flight model, and as such it isn't even on par with the most arcade space shooters of today. Now, Frontier, on the other hand is mostly unsurpassed, despite 16 years passing since it's release. Some games, like I-War or serious simulations like Orbiter do beat it in the physics department, but they are much more recent and can't rival it in terms of scope and freedom.

and a RPG in the sense that your ship was the character, upgrading weapons and advancing to another level in the way RPG's do. Admittedly there was no automatic increase in skill, that just came from hours and hours of dogfighting/failed manual docking...but isn't that better?

Heh. I was going to write a lengthy paragraph in one of my previous posts, further detailing how RPGs put us in character's head, but a spacesim, like Frontier, puts us in the cockpit of a spaceship and this ship's performance is influenced by it's configuration, but otherwise fixed, so, given the direct control we have over the ship, any attempts to introduce player character stats in a meaningful manner would result in bad gameplay.

Ok, somebody's going to correct me on this, but it remains that Elite/Frontier/FFE was way ahead of it's time.

Elite deserves all the credit for pioneering the 3D graphics, procedural generation, spacesim genre in general and freelance spacesims in particular.

Frontier is just monumental - it introduced realistic physics, astronomy and stunning scale to spacesims and did so without compromising the ergonomy of the interface (it's very comfortable even by today's norms) or accessibility (well, it has autopilot that basically flies your ship for you).

However good Elite 4 is, the world has moved on so much I'm fearful it will disappoint. But delighted to be proved wrong!

My main concern isn't that the world moved on, it's that it mostly moved backwards and I'm afraid the Elite 4 may have to adapt, and become just another dumb space shooter.

I just hope that long term fans of the Frontier are important enough for the company, to not risk removing key aspects of Frontier mechanics, and that Braben will once again find a way to bridge the gap between hardcore and accessible, allowing the company to tap into the wallets of casual so called "gamers" as well.

 

[shrapnel]

I just hope that long term fans of the Frontier are important enough for the company, to not risk removing key aspects of Frontier mechanics, and that Braben will once again find a way to bridge the gap between hardcore and accessible, allowing the company to tap into the wallets of casual so called "gamers" as well.

Well, we've got two threads saying the same thing here now so let's hope they take the hint!!

 

[DrBaggy]

Heh. I was going to write a lengthy paragraph in one of my previous posts, further detailing how RPGs put us in character's head, but a spacesim, like Frontier, puts us in the cockpit of a spaceship and this ship's performance is influenced by it's configuration, but otherwise fixed, so, given the direct control we have over the ship, any attempts to introduce player character stats in a meaningful manner would result in bad gameplay.

All good points, that paragraph particularly insightful. The very early screenshots of E4 from way back and the fact that they brought out Dog's Life as a way of developing E4 suggests Frontier are going down the RPG character route. However, there is a risk with this; I was happy to "be" Commander Jamieson in my head and not need to see him, certainly not having modifiers to my actions, so there is a risk of making things worse. I wonder if Frontier have thought this through? (*cough* Michael)

Thanks for your correction (I knew somebody would!) and other points well made

 

[njacob]

It was mentioned to initially be an MMO project but, to quote David Braben "abandoned due to the immaturity of technology for online play"

I wonder with the recent advancements in the MMO market (the project was scrapped back in 2000) - will that project direction see a return?

Somewhat controversial subject I guess. I noticed a few around here would hate the idea of that.

Oh and to touch on another post here:

Ok, somebody's going to correct me on this, but it remains that Elite/Frontier/FFE was way ahead of it's time. However good Elite 4 is, the world has moved on so much I'm fearful it will disappoint. But delighted to be proved wrong!

A game doesn't have to reinvent the wheel to become a smash hit. Infact, very few games these days do really reinvent the wheel. There's lots of great recent examples of games that became successful by just toning on ideas and being well developed.

 

[Spacegamer]

A game doesn't have to reinvent the wheel to become a smash hit. Infact, very few games these days do really reinvent the wheel. There's lots of great recent examples of games that became successful by just toning on ideas and being well developed.

I believe that is the main criticism of todays game industry,very little innovation.

As fo a online version of Frontiers would it be able to compete in what is fast becoming a very crowded market?.

 

[Steve O B Have]

I believe that is the main criticism of todays game industry,very little innovation.

As fo a online version of Frontiers would it be able to compete in what is fast becoming a very crowded market?.

Why not - there is a pretty large gap in the online space trading RPG market currently taken in the main by EVE Online. Even amongst the EVE players there is a strong desire for something more, something with a little more substance.

Whist the mainstay of the EVE players are happy plugging away with corporations and getting involved in their PVP battles, there is an element that is interested in the single player element which EVE simply does not cater for. This element, I believe, is representitive of a large number of people who have picked up EVE and discovered not only the immense complexity of the game (and subsequently it's learning curve) but also the great yawning vapid gap that is it's single player element.

Not only would Frontier pick up the people who didn't find what they were looking for in EVE Online or the X series but also the number of people who are perservering with EVE because there is nothing else out there.

In my personal opinion if E4 is done well then CCP will need to seriously pick up their game.

 

[njacob]

I believe that is the main criticism of todays game industry,very little innovation.

As fo a online version of Frontiers would it be able to compete in what is fast becoming a very crowded market?.

The industry has reached a point where revolutionizing the market will no longer happen as much anymore. You'll see curious new changes, ideas and directions with games, but beyond that, you can pretty much generalise and relate all games to one another now. Take Fallout 3 for example, it was one of the biggest FPS releases in the last few years but really it felt like playing a Half-Life 2 expansion, aside from some good or evil choices. Even Spore, for all its apparent "ground breaking new ideas and technologies (Will Wright)" - was simply an economic/life simulator very much akin to Simcity or The Sims in space.

My personal views on some remaining innovations that can be done:
- Improved AI.. AI is so substandard for this 'new age' of gaming.
- MMORPG. Collect 10 of this, go here, receive reward and XP. Talk to this guy, he don't seem useful, why even read his quest? - Grind 50 of these mobs then run here, quest over. Complete raid and instance, collect loot. These are years-old concepts that need to disappear from the MMO market if it hopes to survive. The mindless questing and lack of world interaction are ways that market can really improve. Bioware are taking the new Starwars in an innovative direction like this.
- Better and more ingenius online capabilities for games. I STILL see games launch with awful or no online play.

And I agree with the above poster, online space games are heavily lacking in the industry for some reason. Eve will never be my cup of tea, but I would indeed jump at the idea of an online space sim. There is Jumpgate 2 in the works, but i'm not anticipating that hugely (primarily because NetDevil really soured the market with Auto Assault)

 

[turwhitt]

Bioware are taking the new Starwars in an innovative direction like this.

Believe that when you see it!

The old star wars was extremely innovative - at least as sandbox as Frontier. But it was destroyed, sadly.

 

[Spacegamer]

And I agree with the above poster, online space games are heavily lacking in the industry for some reason. Eve will never be my cup of tea, but I would indeed jump at the idea of an online space sim. There is Jumpgate 2 in the works, but i'm not anticipating that hugely (primarily because NetDevil really soured the market with Auto Assault)

There are a number of space mmo advailable from both professional and indie developers,although some from the indie deves will probably never get any further than a web site.
And along with the browser based games there definitly appears to more of this type of Game poping up.You can check some of them out here.

http://www.spacesimcentral.com/links.php

 

[njacob]

I tend to only follow big upcoming releases - I'm kinda fussy and find it hard to ever really enjoy korean made or independant made MMOs. Runescape has enjoyed great success for example.. but it's definitely not for me. That said, i'm not denying the possibility one I like might crop up eventually.. it just hasn't happened yet.

I have been following Black Prophecy, Jumpgate and Infinity a bit, but they appear to be vaporware at this point.

I guess I can see why Frontier decided to scrap the idea of E4 as an MMO - it's a hell of a gamble for independant companies to get involved with. Unsuccessful MMO projects have killed more companies than I can name.

 

[Steve O B Have]

I have been following Black Prophecy, Jumpgate and Infinity a bit, but they appear to be vaporware at this point.

I'm not sure you can fairly call any of them Vaporware as they all have working engines and demonstratable technology. Infinity has a great transparancy with their development and have made no promises as to a release date.

Black Prophecy and Jumpgate are about as far as you could get from being Vaporware without actually being released.

 

[Callum Rowley]

Bioware are taking the new Starwars in an innovative direction like this.

All at the expense of my Knights of the Old Republic 3 single-player game *sob*.

 

[njacob]

That's true.. Hadn't thought of that Liquilla.

Although from the way it sounds this will be like KOTOR online.

PS: Vaporware has multiple definitions, in my case: An advertised product, often computer software, whose launch has not happened yet and might or might not ever happen

They're releases I don't suspect to see for a long time or quite possibly never.

 

[Steve O B Have]

That's true.. Hadn't thought of that Liquilla.

Although from the way it sounds this will be like KOTOR online.

PS: Vaporware has multiple definitions, in my case: An advertised product, often computer software, whose launch has not happened yet and might or might not ever happen

They're releases I don't suspect to see for a long time or quite possibly never.

Not to labor the point - but we should be fair to these guys who are putting the hard yards into the development of these games - labeling them vaporware is harsh at best and unnecessarily derogatory at worst.

Besides good old Wikipedia does make this point in it's definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

"Products with unspecified release dates or long development times that outwardly demonstrate regular, verifiable progress in production are not normally labeled vaporware."

These guys have shown not only development progress but also working gameplay. I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[njacob]

There are many definitions of vaporware, wikipedia isn't the definitive world dictionary. In my view it's not a derogatory term, especially since the term can be interpreted in so many ways. It's merely my way of stating some companies fall victim to lengthy development cycles only to never fully realise the project (complete it basically). There is a timelimit on game development and if it goes too far, the game falls behind in terms of technology and ideas, drastically. See Duke Nukem Forever as an example.

I'm also not slandering or disrespecting any company that decides to take on such mammoth projects, kudos to them for trying to compete in such a tough market.

Since we're getting a bit off topic, i'm hoping E4 does indeed turn out to be a mixture of all aspects, and as Braben says, it's very close to his heart and he doesn't want to rush it.

Two games might be a bit of a stretch though, as his interview a few years ago stated the plans are a single player and MMO version of the game. Unless they're just incorporated into one I guess.