Elite and Newtonian physics - I'm confused

You miss the point... the gas doesn't transmit the waves. Rather the gas physically hits your ship and that creates the sound, like a sudden and violent blast of wind. As for the speed of it... VERY FAST. The detonation velocities of explosive can exceed 10000m/s (ten thousand, I did not add extra zeros for the hell of it), this makes the tradition speed of sound marginal at best.

Again, explain the sound of a ship accelerating TOWARDS YOU.

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Sorry, but any explanation that relies on "it can happen" is not a satisfying explanation because it can't explain all the cases where it can't. (What about thrusters pointing away from me, in a ship moving towards me? Why can't I hear sound when the canopy is broken? (There's still air in my helmet, I'm sitting in a chair connected to the hull of the ship, surely I should hear it?)

Thank the FSM, someone who understands the scientific method.... phew, I thought this thread was a lost cause... need to spread the love around before i can rep u again, tho.
 
Whilst all this is true - it's for good reason.

For example - 400 billion star systems in the ED galaxy - tell me how you would go about calculating 400 billion XYZ coordinates in any sensible amount of time, which took in how far and fast each of those 400 billion star systems would rotate around the galactic core? :)

You truly have to draw the line at some point. :)

yes some things aren't feasable, others should be. But the issue is always when you cliam soemthing to be but you aren't.
 
As it stands ED is closer to WW2 dogfighting than what actual space combat might look like. Thing is, what actual space combat would look like would be super boring to play in a video game. Imagine all the thrill and excitement of launching missiles at blips on a radar representing ships that are literally tens of thousands of kilometres away and you're starting to get the idea.

It would be awesome from a sim perspective though. Most combat in modern military flight sims takes place at BVR. Does that make them boring, or great fun to play because it's realistic? I would go with the latter, but then I've always been a sim fan. ED clearly is a video game, not a sim, so certain concessions have been made to make it more appealing to people who like to see lots of explosions and lasers etc... Not a bad thing, if that's your bag.
 
That's because nothing you can do can actually switch off the "decelerate to maximum speed" programming - "turning off the thrusters" doesn't actually turn them off, any more than switching FA Off actually deactivates the FA.

But I'm told that if your thrusters are actually destroyed by weapons fire (so that they absolutely, definitely no longer work), you can be rammed or force-shelled to speeds far exceeding your rated maximum, and that you never slow down in such cases. I have no idea if this is still true, or if FD "fixed" this.

I actually tried what I said before about decelerating to max speed in the beta and I was wrong. You don't decelerate to maximum speed, you slow down to a standstill with thrusters disabled.
 
I know it's not surprising at all for those that know me but I've never understood when guys pop off and say that Elite doesn't follow Newtonian physics. A couple of the guys I fly with tend to be very critical of the game, specifically of FD (yet they still play for hours and hours). Usually the comments are "well if it followed Newtonian physics", "if it had real Newtonian physics X and Y wouldn't have happened", etc.

As I've understood it from comments Braben and dev/support have made they onl thing they've done that breaks science is Supercruise, faster than light travel. I can absolutely understand that, without it we'd never even leave the starter system. To my somewhat experienced eyes and butt everything feels as I'd expect.

So when others about Newtonian physics should I just ignore them or is there something that I can correct them with?

Thanks all


Spaceflight means freedom of movement - apply thrust and you accelerate in the opposite direction. How hard you accelerate is a function of your thrust power divided by your ship's mass / inertia. There's no resistance to motion from space itself, and inertia is velocity-independent - its value doesn't vary at classical (non-relativistic) speeds.

Have a quick scan thru this video to get an idea of how much more fun it is than planes in space.

In real life, motion is relative - whether something's moving, and how fast, is a function of the observer's own velocity, so for all practical intents and purposes, from a pilot's perspective, speed is purely relative. Thus you could switch to your "blue zone" aircraft-style handling envelope at any moment, regardless of your navigational velocity. Whereas in ED, speed is absolute, and measured in relation to coordinate space, so you have to physically change speed with respect to space itself, which causes a network latency bottleneck and thus speed limit, besides being utterly backwards, dumb and fun-destroying.
 
Speed limits are necessary due to netcode limitations. Combat would also devolve into 100% jousting sessions.

Just pretend the FSD is a quantum anchor that the thrusters must overcome to move the ship in real space.
 
Physics is not your strong point, I take it? I'm really sorry, but if you're going to state stuff as fact, please make sure you're using real facts rather than "alternative" ones...

You would always keep accelerating in a Newtonian fashion in space until you were a sizeable fraction of the velocity of light when relativistic physics come into play...
even then, you wouldn't stop accelerating, ever... you'd just reach velocities asymptotic to C and never reach it, gradually getting heavier and heavier.
Conversely, the "speed" [sic] (you mean velocity) of the reaction mass ejected from the ship has no bearing on top speed (velocity) in a system with arbitrary energy capacity but does have a bearing on the acceleration and thrust efficiency (Ns / kg) of the reaction mass.

Well there is no top speed in newtonian physics speed is infinity, relativistic mechanics however is a different thing but thats out of question in an multiplayer game as modeling time dilation is not possible.
 
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Just so you know, even supercruise can be explained by real life physics if you employ the Alcubierre Drive theory, which shows how you can achieve "faster than light" travel without breaking the laws of physics.

First of all, saying that nothing can travel faster than light is an inherantly amateurish statement, physicists don't even use this term when describing the ultimate speed, which is the "Speed of Causality", the speed of light only happens to be exactly the same as the speed of causality.

Here come's Alcubierres Drive theory, which shows how it is possible with intence levels of energy to shift space-time itself at speeds far greater than the speed of light, in a form of a bubble, while anything inside the bubble (for example a ship) is still traveling at it's own speed and cannot travel at the speed of light or faster than it within the space-time bubble.

Another great example of speeds far greater than the speed of light - is the expansion of space, we have observed galaxies flying away from each other in speeds milion times faster than the speed of light itself.

I know it may sound confusing, but the easiest way to wrap your head around this would be to imagine a kiddy pool filled with water, which represents space time, and you swiming in it at your fastest possible speed, which is the speed of light.

Now put that kiddy pool on a truck, and let your friend drive at hundreds of miles per hour. You will still be swiming in the pool at your maximum possible speed, however the pool which represents space time, will be traveling at speed far greater than the maximum speed allowed in the kiddy pool.

This is pretty much what Alcubierres Drive theory explains, and ED uses a "modified" version of this theory for the SuperCruise travel (which is even stated in the Wiki).

So next time your friends start talking , tell them to shut it because they don't know nor understand a god damn thing.


Actually, ED is so accurate in regards to physics (minus the weaponry), the only real problem I ever found with it was that when flying with flight assist off your ship slowly decelerates, which is nonsence, because in vacuum of space any moving ovject will keep it's trajectory and momentum forever untill the end of time or untill it colides with something or gets affected by outside forces such as gravity of another body
 
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I know it's not surprising at all for those that know me but I've never understood when guys pop off and say that Elite doesn't follow Newtonian physics. A couple of the guys I fly with tend to be very critical of the game, specifically of FD (yet they still play for hours and hours). Usually the comments are "well if it followed Newtonian physics", "if it had real Newtonian physics X and Y wouldn't have happened", etc.

As I've understood it from comments Braben and dev/support have made they only thing they've done that breaks science is Supercruise, faster than light travel. I can absolutely understand that, without it we'd never even leave the starter system. To my somewhat experienced eyes and butt everything feels as I'd expect.

So when others **** about Newtonian physics should I just ignore them or is there something that I can correct them with?

Thanks all
I understand that the flight assist provided by the computer makes ships in a microgravity environment behave in a way more similar to how we understand aeroplanes to work. In terms of base knowledge, almost everyone on the planet appreciates gravity and has either "flown" or seen other people "flying" aeroplanes, be it in games or movies. This means that people are far more able to conceptualise spaceships in space behaving like aeroplanes in air, which is why the decision was made to default to FA-on.

There are certain technical limitations in how players' ships can interact with each other online that prevents the developers instantiating much more realistic physics with the ships in terms of the speeds they can reach under constant acceleration. This isn't an issue in a single player game, which is why Frontier and First Encounters could have the model 25 years ago but we can't today.

One interesting point about FA-off is that one-or-some of the senior game designers were opposed to it being in the game at all. Another point of note is that the acceleration and "deceleration" values of ships are different under FA-on and FA-off; generally speaking the accelerations are higher with FA-off and decelerations higher with FA-on. This means that there are manoeuvres that can be performed in one mode which can't be performed in the other under any circumstances. Bichording and trichording (using thrusters as well as the main drive to accelerate on two or, indeed, three axes) is possible in both modes, but the possible behaviours of the ship (as opposed to the behaviours of the ship that the pilot can actually pull off) are different.

It's not a huge deal, but it does make combat a very different experience in each mode, with FA-on being the clear superior choice if there's only a binary option, and a mix of flight modes for the optimal way of doing things -- although the time spent in each mode is still very heavily weighted in favour of FA-on.

Then there's the whole "blue-zone" thing, which is entirely understandable from the perspective of heavier than air flight, but which makes no sense at all in space - your rotational thrusters seem to get weaker the faster your velocity. There are gameplay reasons for this, but again in FA-off, it's just weird that it happens, especially given the inexplicable differences in thruster performance between the two modes (given the existence of boost, being able to decelerate is much more important than being able to accelerate, which is precisely what has been nerfed in FA-off.

I personally would prefer the impulse from the thrusters to be the same regardless of mode. I don't mind the speed limit -- it keeps things sane and is based in RL networking -- but why gimp me for wanting to be a spaceman in a spaceship in space?
 
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This is a game first and foremost. Not a physics works. As a game it will put gameplay over realistic simulation always to ensure the game fulfill the requirement of being fun and entertaining to play and being able to appeal to a wide amount of player types.
That being said, Frontier has always said they want to place real physics inside the game as its engine allows it, and Braben is actually pretty proud about it. However, it is a game and not to be taken all that seriously despite what the developer says.

In my personal opinion, Braben speaks too much about real physics and realism while the game is not so accurate about it by any stretch of the imagination. Is confusing, I would appreciate a most honest and grounded opinion of his own product.

But at the end of the day it matters naught, you either play the game or not. People that keep telling "newtonian stuff" while playing are simply trying to appear interesting to others, little else.
 
FE2 and FFE were both Newtonian (aside from a few glitches) and to be honest, less enjoyable than ED's quirky 3D hovercraft mechanics.

Turns out that a Gloster Gladiator the size of a cathedral is worth simulating, even if you have to bend a few laws of physics to make it plausible.
 
I would rather enjoy the gameplay of Elite Dangerous over having a realistic flight model. Star Citizen has the real flight model and I can't control those space ships at all and it feels like I am sat on a spinning top shooting a BB gun at targets that are far too small to see.

The dev team at Frontier made a choice and went with what we have now and I am thankful for that, if you want a realistic flight model then there are other space games out there with them in.
 
Actually, ED is so accurate in regards to physics (minus the weaponry), the only real problem I ever found with it was that when flying with flight assist off your ship slowly decelerates, which is nonsence, because in vacuum of space any moving ovject will keep it's trajectory and momentum forever untill the end of time or untill it colides with something or gets affected by outside forces such as gravity of another body

I would debate this singular theory - while I will not contest this holds true in a pure vacuum at zero gravitational force, space is anything but pure vacuum, and microgravity exists even light years from any stellar body generating a gravitational field. We never really reach true zero gravity, but we do get pretty darn close. As for the purity - space is filthy. Astronauts on space walks wear suits which contain layers of kevlar to protect them from micro-meteors - bits of matter as small as grains of sand traveling at extreme velocities. I'd think even in the deepest reaches of space there would still be a fair amount of such micro-debris that over time the velocity and trajectory of any object in motion would eventually be affected - so outside forces are always acting on objects in motion in space.

Mariner 4 was damaged by dust in 1967, while en route to Mars.

Now, this isn't to say that our ships would suffer any noticeable affect by these forces, just that I doubt anything would actually travel indefinitely along the same trajectory and with the same momentum in space.

Why our ships lose momentum is... just a game factor, and not one that really has any impact on how I play.

Now when it comes to weapons... nothing has ever been said on the subject to top this:

[video=youtube_share;hLpgxry542M]https://youtu.be/hLpgxry542M[/video]
 
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As are you.

Sound requires a medium to travel through and in space [near vacuum] any particles from said thrusters / explosions would dissipate well before reaching you, and your ears are not sensitive enough for the resultant "sound"

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...ons/918-can-you-hear-sounds-in-space-beginner

Again, it's not sound that's being transmitted it's a 10000m/s expanding cloud of gas like one that would be cause by and explosive cannon shell. Do you have any experience in what being hit by a very thin but very fast wave of gas in a vacuum is like? No? Then you can't really say if the resulting sounds (of which you admit there would be at least some that your ship could then amplify) are loud or quiet.

I have entertained different versions of this idea, but I dismissed it since I can hear the multi cannon bullets hitting the ships regardless of how far away they are, and regardless of the lack of activity in the surroundings that could leave gasses all over the place. This could be explained with some sort of smart bullet that sends some feedback to the ship. And that seems to be consistent with the idea of engineered cannons that self destruct before hitting friendlies. But then we have to think about why the discovery scanner sound doesn't seem to be distorted when you compare it to how it sounds when it comes from your ship and how it sounds when it comes from another. Whether your scanner honk travels through your ship's atmosphere and structure, or the honk from another ship travels from another medium hypothetically distorting the waves, the honk sounds the same. Last but not least, when we use the SRV, nothing of this seems to change, we can still hear almost everything from our surroundings.


This one is more persuasive, since we can guess some sort of smart selective glass polarization. This would explain why the background doesn't fade out when you look directly onto a star, and it would explain why the objects nearby doesn't get obscured by the polarization. If the canopy is breached, I guess the helmet start doing it. But if this is the case, why do ships in supercruise look so nefariously bright? Since I don't want to be a nitpicker, we can argue that this effect is more of a oversight in the effect implementation, rather than a scientific inaccuracy in game design.


But how do you cut a laser? Why doesn't the laser keep going on and on? I can accept the ship simulation though, to give the pilot broader awareness.

However, I think there is some vague limit to the amount of nitpicking or ad hoc explanations we can make to make sense of all of this before we start being silly, and doing so is too charitable towards the idea of Elite being scientifically accurate, or a scientific simulation. It doesn't need to be, and there is nothing wrong with being less scientific, but to say that SC is the only science breaking aspect of the game is an overstatement.

Re sound: I do agree that many of the sounds such as your shells hitting distant enemies are computer generated, hit confirmation is very important. I'm just pointing out that not all of the sounds necessarily are.

Again, explain the sound of a ship accelerating TOWARDS YOU.

Again your missing the point. I am only suggesting that many things can be heard in space (via major and micro impacts of high speed particles and gases on your ship), not all things. At one point I readily admitted that much of the sound is probably generated onboard but some of it may be merely amplified. NASA (unsuprisingly) hasn't done tests on if detonating a large bomb near the ISS can be heard by the onboard astronauts so we still don't know what such an even would even sound like.


I'm just sick of people weighing in on these conversations with no more knowledge of astrophysics than "There's no sound and no friction, duh!". While both are these statements are technically true they far from tell the whole story.

No sound can be transmited through a vacuum conventionally... but a lot things would still cause sounds to be heard by nearby ship inhabitants, such as explosions.

No friction will slow down ships... but all ships will have to be able to keep their own speed constantly under control unless they wish to drastically change their orbit.
 
Well there is no top speed in newtonian physics speed is infinity, relativistic mechanics however is a different thing but thats out of question in an multiplayer game as modeling time dilation is not possible.

Infinite speed? *mind blown*

Only if you converted the entire mass of the universe into energy purely to drive that spaceship forward... and you still wouldn't reach infinite speed... I suspect you are extrapolating Newton's original idea beyond the gamut go his original ideas...

Damn, I think I should have had another bottle of wine...

*mind still blown*

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I actually tried what I said before about decelerating to max speed in the beta and I was wrong. You don't decelerate to maximum speed, you slow down to a standstill with thrusters disabled.

Yes. Absolutely yuck! probably stop spinning, too.
 
Again, it's not sound that's being transmitted it's a 10000m/s expanding cloud of gas like one that would be cause by and explosive cannon shell. Do you have any experience in what being hit by a very thin but very fast wave of gas in a vacuum is like? No? Then you can't really say if the resulting sounds (of which you admit there would be at least some that your ship could then amplify) are loud or quiet.



Re sound: I do agree that many of the sounds such as your shells hitting distant enemies are computer generated, hit confirmation is very important. I'm just pointing out that not all of the sounds necessarily are.



Again your missing the point. I am only suggesting that many things can be heard in space (via major and micro impacts of high speed particles and gases on your ship), not all things. At one point I readily admitted that much of the sound is probably generated onboard but some of it may be merely amplified. NASA (unsuprisingly) hasn't done tests on if detonating a large bomb near the ISS can be heard by the onboard astronauts so we still don't know what such an even would even sound like.


I'm just sick of people weighing in on these conversations with no more knowledge of astrophysics than "There's no sound and no friction, duh!". While both are these statements are technically true they far from tell the whole story.

No sound can be transmited through a vacuum conventionally... but a lot things would still cause sounds to be heard by nearby ship inhabitants, such as explosions.

No friction will slow down ships... but all ships will have to be able to keep their own speed constantly under control unless they wish to drastically change their orbit.

--

So, you are saying hit confirmation is provided by computer but not other sounds? Sounds like you are over complicating something very simple...

Here is a quote from Will Wheaton (RIP) a senior JPL member, physicist and nuclear scientist, regarding a theoretical explosion in space:

--- QUOTE ---
This is one of those things that Hollywood will almost always get wrong, because they want them to look like the audience expects them to look, and have absolutely no interest in teaching physics!

There is not too much data available (in public, anyhow) on what explosions in space really look like, so I will have to limit myself to what I think they should look like. (At least I do have an interest in teaching physics.)

Details about the amount of energy and matter involved in the explosion affect the appearance. A universal generality, true in space as on Earth, is that, other things being equal, a larger explosion (inevitably seen from a larger distance by any witnesses who survive to describe it) appears to happen more slowly than a smaller explosion seen from closer at hand. However, bear in mind that the actual energy release event of any actual explosion happens very quickly.

On Earth, the interaction with the surrounding matter, be it air, water, or whatever, means that the initial energy is very quickly, in a few milliseconds, spread out over a fairly large amount of matter, no matter what the nature of the explosive. This material, typically air, forms a luminous fireball that expands at the speed of sound in the air that has been heated by the explosion, which is faster than the speed of sound in ordinary cool air. The result is a shock wave at the surface of the fireball. As the fireball expands it compresses and heats the surrounding air, while losing energy by radiation and also because of the work it is doing on the outside air, all of which causes it to cool. Eventually it cools to the point where it is no longer luminous, the shock wave moves out ahead and makes the BANG! that we hear and that may knock down buildings, and a cloud of swirling debris, smoke, and maybe brownish nitrogen oxides are left behind.

In space, the first few milliseconds proceed as they would in air (say), but then the transfer of energy to the surrounding air never takes place. As a result the initial small, intensely hot fireball simply keeps expanding at very high speed, and the expanding gases and any fragments fly off in straight lines. The fireball cools by radiation at first, but as its density drops it becomes so transparent that radiation is suppressed. For a chemical high explosive, the expansion speed would be a few thousand feet per second. So for a moderate size explosive -- say 1 meter across -- the products will expand to 100 meters in probably less than 0.1 sec, meaning the density will have decreased by a factor of a million, and the visible explosion will effectively be over. Visually the effect would be of a very brief, brilliant flash in a region only a little bigger than the actual extent of the explosive material. Of course there would be no billowing swirling smoke, and any fragments would almost certainly be moving too fast to be visible. The effect would probably be something like that of a big flashbulb.

For a nuclear explosion, the fireball would radiate mainly in the x-ray and ultraviolet, which are not visible to the eye, although the visible part of the radiation would produce a blue-white flash. The expansion speed would be many hundreds or thousands of times faster than for a chemical explosion, so that the time scale would be less than a millisecond. All the material near the source would be vaporized, so there would be no fragments. If the explosion was truly in space, and not in a tenuous atmosphere, then viewed from a survivable distance the effect would probably be similar to, but even less spectacular than, a chemical explosion.

--- END QUOTE ---

Notice that Wheaton states that the energy will attenuate by a factor of 1,000,000 over just 100m and that since space is a vacuum there will be no air to constrain and conversely propagate the shockwave (the tsunami effect - i.e. energy of an earthquake is propagated by a liquid medium to devastating effect) meaning that a concussion grenade or other shockwave device in space will be worthless.

Even at several tens of km above the Earth, sounds are attenuated requiring radios to communicate even a few metres... In space the only sounds you'd hear would be shrapnel hitting the hull, certainly not sounds of engines or others.
From a physics point of view, the nature of the "plasma clouds" and gas clouds would be far too tenuous to deliver sounds that the human ear is capable of picking up... (a few atoms per cubic cm will not transmit enough energy to the eardrum)...

So, in conclusion, sir, I must respectfully state that someone who is sick of people weighing in with physics might well be better served by learning the difference between "you're" and "your."
 
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Another great example of speeds far greater than the speed of light - is the expansion of space, we have observed galaxies flying away from each other in speeds milion times faster than the speed of light itself.

I know it may sound confusing, but the easiest way to wrap your head around this would be to imagine a kiddy pool filled with water, which represents space time, and you swiming in it at your fastest possible speed, which is the speed of light.

Now put that kiddy pool on a truck, and let your friend drive at hundreds of miles per hour. You will still be swiming in the pool at your maximum possible speed, however the pool which represents space time, will be traveling at speed far greater than the maximum speed allowed in the kiddy pool.

Unfortunately, this is a common misconception regarding the speed of light...

If the truck was driving at the speed of light minus 1km/h and the kid was swimming in the pool at 2km/h in the same direction of the truck, due to time dilations, the child would still not appear to be exceeding the speed of light according to someone standing by the side of the road and measuring the speed of the child... that child's speed would be recorded at less than the speed of light by some fraction of a km/h even though "common sense" would say its speed should be lightspeed + 1km/h.

That is the nature of relativity.

The reason why distant things seem to be expanding away from us at greater than the speed of light is not because they are moving but because the space between us is expanding roughly proportional to the amount of deep interstellar space between us... (it appears that space within galaxies is not expanding measurably, only the space between the galaxies...)

Also, note that galaxies with a red shift of about 1.4ish are considered borderline moving away from us at lightpseed.... these are at about 1.30 x 10^26 km or about 14b LY away and the cosmic background radiation is shifted by about 1000, meaning it is moving away from us significantly slower than "millions of times the speed of light."
 
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