Elite Dangerous & Keyboard + Mouse Bias

But 'perma-boost' isn't a term describing someone who boosts straight at you in serious PvP. It refers to constantly boosting laterally. I don't know the extent of your PvP experience but unless you have fought in the type of duels we're talking about you may not fully appreciate the effectiveness. I can assure you that it is what PvP revolves around now for a reason.

Done correctly, entirely with forwards and up/down/r/l thrust and no reverski, it creates a situation that is the very opposite of the one you describe, in which it is practically impossible for someone to get on one's tail or to get too close.

Recent example. Vid's quite long but I'm basically doing it the whole time across both duels so pick almost anywhere!

So, in the context of the OP, where the premise is that KBaM has an advantage over HOTAS due to the precision the former brings to controls via relative-mouse and FAoff combined with permaboost's maneuverability distortion... I was unable to see whether your evasive flying is partially a function of controls? Would you say that, with enough practice and SA, that kind of evasive capability is available to any control system? Or some greater than others? (I've gone through this thread and your others, where you demonstrate/teach your evasion techniques, but didn't see that comparison (or impact on tactics) addressed, so sorry if I missed it somewhere).

Hi there, no I don't believe that evasion is any way easier, in and of itself, with KBM compared to dual stick, HOTAS or controller. I sometimes evade with hardpoints retracted to see how long I can keep an attacker missing for, or I field all gimballed loadouts and evade, evade, evade. You can use any control system to do those things. I see Cmdr Xpressive in this thread, who uses a controller, and Xpressive has many, many times outlasted a fixed weapon user by combining evasion with gimbals.

Where KBM becomes superior and is used in practically all cases, except by a very few skilled dual stick users, is where the contest becomes evading fixed weapons whilst at the same time attempting to hit with your own. There is nothing quite as good as the combination of FA-off and Relative Mouse for that task. If you check out PvP Hub vids like the 2v2 contest the guys had recently you'll see what I mean.

Second question: You use evasion remarkably against weapons with low shot speed. Is it as viable against those running the current meta builds of PAs +RGs, especially where the KBaM railgun module sniper is working to keep the engagement ranges longer?

Because it really seems that it's that combination of rails (especially with their super-penetrator ability once shields do down) + the KBaM precision advantage that creates what some consider unbalanced.

The same principles of evasion apply to hit scan as to travel-time weapons but ofc it's much more difficult, most especially because you lose the ability to be somewhere different to where the reticle said you would be.

However, hit scan weapons come with their own downsides, most particularly that they force all but the most skilled users to reduce their own movement in order to aim. Plasma is very effective 1v1 despite its mediocre RoF and DPE because it condenses damage into one brief momentary twitch trigger. Even 3 or 4 rails don't really achieve that in the same way.

Personally I have not for over a year flown shieldless or low-shield builds partly due to overall hit points but also because, as you say, a good pilot with super-penetrator or other powerful counters will hit too hard. The last time I flew my Courier with a low shield my buddy Dezpe reverski-planted me with super penetrator, and even though he is like 1 in 100,000 skill level, the fact is there is no answer to it in FdL or Courier, that can't stack MRP's, except to keep the shield up.

However, even though there are people out there a lot better than me, I can tell you truly that if I am fully gimballed (as I usually am nowadays, for a 1v1, sadly) I have never lost a medium ship 1v1 in FdL, and never lost a small ship 1v1 in Courier, since 2.1. I have a couple of times lost when I have been full fixed or in partial fixed/gimballed loadouts but never full gimballed. (Two examples of losses: Xpressive after 45 mins beat my mixed loadout Courier with the phasing on his Viper without me losing shield lol, and Dezpe beat my full-fixed multi FdL with his plasma'n'rails FdL. I can't evade properly while aiming fixed multis, sadly nobody can.) And ofc the most common build I've fought has been plasma'n'rails, in both medium and small ship categories, across scores upon scores of duels.

I appreciate that some readers might find it surprising that gimbals can > fixed undefeated in over 2 years, 1v1, but that is the truth. And it's a terrible indictment of the game because it's a combined product of the over-performing ToT of gimbals compared to fixed, with the absurd relevance of hit point inflation, which permits the gimballed user, if they don't just fly backwards 4-0-2 but instead fly evasively, to outlast chaff. Because the chaff was designed for an engagement with 20% of the hit points and modding from 11 ammo up to 15 doesn't redress the balance.

I'm not saying it's impossible for an experienced PvP-er with gimbals to lose to an experienced PvP-er with fixed (perhaps it will finally happen to me next week) but it is blindingly obvious who the odds are stacked in favour of. In fact, when I was a member of the PvP Coalition Discord (a body devoted to game balance feedback to FDev) this was something literally everyone agreed upon, including PvP-ers of the experience of Ryan_m and Rinzler, both of whom have unfortunately lost 1v1's to undeniably less skilled pilots because the latter were using gimbals.
 
However, even though there are people out there a lot better than me, I can tell you truly that if I am fully gimballed (as I usually am nowadays, for a 1v1, sadly) I have never lost a medium ship 1v1 in FdL, and never lost a small ship 1v1 in Courier, since 2.1. I have a couple of times lost when I have been full fixed or in partial fixed/gimballed loadouts but never full gimballed. (Two examples of losses: Xpressive after 45 mins beat my mixed loadout Courier with the phasing on his Viper without me losing shield lol, and Dezpe beat my full-fixed multi FdL with his plasma'n'rails FdL. I can't evade properly while aiming fixed multis, sadly nobody can.) And ofc the most common build I've fought has been plasma'n'rails, in both medium and small ship categories, across scores upon scores of duels.

I appreciate that some readers might find it surprising that gimbals can > fixed undefeated in over 2 years, 1v1, but that is the truth. And it's a terrible indictment of the game because it's a combined product of the over-performing ToT of gimbals compared to fixed, with the absurd relevance of hit point inflation, which permits the gimballed user, if they don't just fly backwards 4-0-2 but instead fly evasively, to outlast chaff. Because the chaff was designed for an engagement with 20% of the hit points and modding from 11 ammo up to 15 doesn't redress the balance

Thanks for that insight. Do I understand correctly that you're flying HOTAS these days? Regardless, if you say that evasion w/gimbaled is a viable counter to these KBaM meta-build assassins (and your other videos seem to indicate it is), then that's all I personally could ask for. It's enough to know that, as long as the fight remains 1v1, that if I fly well enough against even a relatively expert KBaM PvP'er using KBaM/fixed, I have a chance if I do *everything* right.
 
Thanks for that insight. Do I understand correctly that you're flying HOTAS these days? Regardless, if you say that evasion w/gimbaled is a viable counter to these KBaM meta-build assassins (and your other videos seem to indicate it is), then that's all I personally could ask for. It's enough to know that, as long as the fight remains 1v1, that if I fly well enough against even a relatively expert KBaM PvP'er using KBaM/fixed, I have a chance if I do *everything* right.

I'm always KBM although I do own all the hardware except a throttle. Even a Razor.

Evasion plus monstrous shield plus gimbals is an effective counter to the meta-builds, although personally I say that more with sadness than celebration, for the reasons I have already given in relation to the insane hit points and aim-bot guns.

However, I don't want to disappoint anyone who tries this: I must emphasise that the evasion can take a lot of work and you'll need to put that work in against other players, not NPC's. I know a lot of guys who've tried it and failed initially (this is inevitable) eating plasma to the face, then become discouraged. (I have been swapping PM's with a buddy about this, him with varying success, for near two weeks now.) You do have to stick at it!

Wait until I put six chaff launchers and a pair of dispersal cannon on a shieldless FDL!

Hee hee, Elite Dangerous is the 'game of the counter-build'. This is why nobody can arranged-fight anyone else without lawyers involved, *sigh*.

I'm not much of a troll, but if I ever really want to counter-build-troll, I'll wait until I see a double-banked-SCB-Lance, then fit my 5 x phasing lasers.
 
Wait until I put six chaff launchers and a pair of dispersal cannon on a shieldless FDL!

Heh -- well that's what makes it a game, right? The rock/paper/scissors factor? As long as there're multiple optimization/risk/reward choices and not just one build to rule them all, that's fun because 1v1 battle engagements resemble a box of chocolates. Granted, pilots like Truesilver are the rare few who are almost candidates for The Avengers (especially with their thinned ranks!); but until he arrived with his tutorials using other-than-meta builds, I think many (perhaps including the OP here) had surrendered to the belief that PvP w/o KBaM was at such disadvantage that flying in Open was near folly.

You choice, of course, is to decide whether to outfit like you've described, despite the much greater risk of running into builds where that would likely be a very suboptimal loadout. So we all have odds to play. ...and not everyone flying gimbals is necessarily crippled while they have targeting flipped off (present company excluded, atm!).
 
Heh -- well that's what makes it a game, right? The rock/paper/scissors factor? As long as there're multiple optimization/risk/reward choices and not just one build to rule them all, that's fun because 1v1 battle engagements resemble a box of chocolates. Granted, pilots like Truesilver are the rare few who are almost candidates for The Avengers (especially with their thinned ranks!); but until he arrived with his tutorials using other-than-meta builds, I think many (perhaps including the OP here) had surrendered to the belief that PvP w/o KBaM was at such disadvantage that flying in Open was near folly.

You choice, of course, is to decide whether to outfit like you've described, despite the much greater risk of running into builds where that would likely be a very suboptimal loadout. So we all have odds to play. ...and not everyone flying gimbals is necessarily crippled while they have targeting flipped off (present company excluded, atm!).
To strong of a rock/paper/scissors mechanic leads to poor gameplay. Fights become determined at the outfitting screen, instead of behind the stick. Tactics and counter-tactics (gameplay-based) are fine as they can be employed by anyone as any time. Super-strong builds and counter-builds are NOT fine, as it turns too many fights into luck-of-the-draw, did-I-happen-to-run-into-my-counter one sided, pre-determined blowouts.
 
Hee hee, Elite Dangerous is the 'game of the counter-build'. This is why nobody can arranged-fight anyone else without lawyers involved, *sigh*.

I rarely do prearranged fights, outside of testing purposes. So most of my setups emphasize survivability first, and offense second, allowing me to survive almost all the time, while scoring kills some of the time.

Most people that I run into semi-frequently can guess that I like speed builds in small and mediums, while the only large ships I regularly fly are hull heavy hybrid setup; all of them tending to have a mix of fixed hitscan weapons and gimbaled or turreted kinetics. They are unconventional enough that building to fight me is generally unwise unless I'm the only potential hostile around.

...and not everyone flying gimbals is necessarily crippled while they have targeting flipped off (present company excluded, atm!).

They do lose the ability to engage targets without pointing at them, rendering hitscan gimbals weaker versions of fixed weapon, while projectile gimabls lose the lead indicator, which makes them in effective beyond very close range or targets flying in straight lines. Dispersal field also forces gimbal and turreted weapons to wobble, even with no target selection.

Alternating between five seconds of wobble and ten seconds of handicapped fixed weapon levels of performance for fifteen minutes would likely give me enough edge to defeat essentially anyone flying a vessel of similar class with an all gimbal loadout.

To strong of a rock/paper/scissors mechanic leads to poor gameplay. Fights become determined at the outfitting screen, instead of behind the stick. Tactics and counter-tactics (gameplay-based) are fine as they can be employed by anyone as any time. Super-strong builds and counter-builds are NOT fine, as it turns too many fights into luck-of-the-draw, did-I-happen-to-run-into-my-counter one sided, pre-determined blowouts.

I agree, though with the exception of a few outliers, I don't think we are quite to such a problematic degree of rock-paper-scissors.

Fights are often determined by outfitting, but not so much in a build/counter-build sense as much as taking a concept and making sure you have the best practical implementation of that concept. Certainly some concepts are more sound than others, but it's still more than just rock-paper-scissors.

Personally, I tend to figure out what I like, then I figure out what I need to do to make it work irrespective of conventional wisdom and faddish 'meta'. Sometimes the results are lackluster (my hybrid phasing vulture was too one-trick wonder, and my courier was never really fast enough in the old Engineer system to work as I'd hoped), but as often as not I have a great deal of fun confounding people with setups they can barely understand, let alone fight effectively. My gimbaled cannon + fixed beam FDL was a good example of this in the past. The hybrid corvette I often run now is another...one that you yourself helped me to refine (fighting your viper IV and Grape's vulture convinced me that sturdy drives couldn't cut it, while the introduction of MRPs and the transition from external to internal module for damage purposes allowed me to make dirty drives viable once shields failed).
 
Back
Top Bottom