Elite Dangerous no longer an MMO?

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Except that all the action takes place in one massively multiplayer galaxy.

... they do use 'massively multiplayer online', which it is, but not 'MMO', which has connotations they don't want.

But that is the whole point of my argument, at least. They are one and the same term.

If I said the British Broadcasting Company was founded in 1922 would you also argue that I didn't mean BBC?

Whether you use the acronym or write it out in full it doesn't change the definition.

 

[ianstrauss]

Is Elite Dangerous an MMO or just a Multiplayer Game?

Search this video in Youtube:

Elite: Dangerous Stage Demo - E3 2014



Well if you Jump on 5:18, you will see that DB fully acknowledges that the game is an MMO. He even went out further to explain that the only place where they control the number of people (instanced) is in major starport hubs. Other than that, you should be able to see ALL players outside of these instanced hubs. I'm not sure if its working that way in reality though...

 

[StayFrosty]

By your rationale, any MMO post WoW is not an MMO, if their player numbers are smaller than those of WoW at its peak? That would suddenly make a lot of MMOs, "not" MMOs.

Market share is not what defines an MMO.

This is irrelevant. An MMO with a playerbase of 10k is still an MMO, irrespective of the existence of MMOs with playerbase in excess of 10million.

Why are you under the impression that I'm talking about the player base? Because I'm not. I'm talking about the technical limitation of the number of people PLAYING TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.

A persistent world is at the very core of what constitutes an MMO. If you've no persistent world, then any online game with a large playerbase, becomes an MMO. World of Tanks is considered to be an MMO, but it isn't really much different from BF4, in that a limited number of players can fight each other on randomly selected maps.

If you remove the persistent world from the equation, then you very much broaden the definition of what constitutes an MMO and Elite Dangerous would still fall within that definition.

Why are you talking about the player base again? Because it's still irrelevant.

Still, what's at the core of a MMO is a large number of players THAT CAN PLAY TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME, and mechanics around that; increasing the number of players in a regular online game isn't enough to make it a MMO if there are no mechanics related to that, just like making a singleplayer game online where everyone plays alone in the same world isn't enough to make it multiplayer.

That makes those mechanics the most important part, because they're only possible with massive numbers of players, and they're the reason MMOs exist, because a game with huge player numbers and no mechanics just wouldn't be fun- it's been attempted before, like multiplayer Doom with 512 players, and it's just a mess. One of those mechanics is persistent elements, one among many, and not a necessarily required one to make a MMO.

And there are other such mechanics, but the idea that MMOs revolve around persistent worlds are pretty much the plague of the genre, as having persistent elements alone don't magically make a game a MMO: as a result, you can find persistent elements in many online, non-massive games, and then, there are few MMOs attempting something else. There's clearly a persistent aspect in Elite: Dangerous, but that alone doesn't make it a MMO, and looking at its depth, it's clearly not enough to support a massive playerbase either, making it a poor argument to support the idea that it's a MMO.

 

[Zeyphyr]

OMG, hopefully i´m to stupid to read the initial post as it´s meant by ghostickles... What the... is wrong with FD? What´s about that great multiplayer adventure in that large universe? We can get the 84´s Version of Elite for free, atm i´m just thinkin why the h... i just play this and why the h... i paid 60 € for such a cra...! Sry for my language, but i´m really pis... =)

o/ Zeyph

* and guys, pls stop discussin about any kind of definition of MMO... No need for that, i got tricked into thinking it´s an MMO like we all played the last years/decades whatever... I paid for that and supported FD before release... Why should i not complain and rage like a little child? Pls tell me...

 

[Tas Devil]

Running the following query in Google:

elite AND dangerous AND MMO site:frontier.co.uk

It shows nothing outside of the forums as far as I can see.

A similar query for Kickstarter yields nothing outside of the comments section. Try as I might I haven't found anywhere that shows that Frontier described their game in an MMO. Perhaps I'm just not searching hard enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3bVeRpvctQ

Start at minute 5:00 and please work on that selective memory...

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Whether it is or not, whether its labeled as so or not doesn't matter so long as Frontier puts in the ability to group and play with my friends is what matters. As long as the instancing allows for 32 players in a zone and supports multiplayer play with appropriate features, is what ultimately matters.
After the removal of offline play a change in marketing strategy carries the slight implication that the 'massive' part, which matters to some players like myself, may not make it into the game. It was billed for 32 players at a time, and if that is still the case then I can rest my fears. Easy.
That was the expectation set at time of purchase.
Having had a night to sleep on it; if FD did change tactics that is a good thing, because MMO players have a certain expectations which Elite Dangerous may not aspire to, and adjusting marketing would be fair to prospective players. This is respectable, reasonable and probably in the games best interest.
As it sits you are going to have to wait, like me, for the new content to see where it is heading.
So long as there are massive improvements to the multiplayer functionality of the game its going to be fine.
My hopes are we get it with Wings.
Again; MMO or not doesn't matter so much as meeting set expectations, being fair to prospects and putting out a really great game. None of which has anything to do with all the semantics being argued.

It is noteworthy, I believe, that no representative has dropped into this thread to say, "we promised you a massively multiplayer online experience, bear with us it will be ready for deployment by {date}". It suggests to me that what we see is what we are getting.

It's a decent game, I'll give them that, but it isn't the game they are advertising. I played Elite back in the day. Not for long because single-player games get too easy too quickly. I liked the premise but not the idea of playing single player game so I went back to my trusty multiplayer as was back then, a little known game called Chess. It wasn't even online, or indeed virtual.

When I saw that there was a new version of Elite and I went to their website and it said it was now Elite in a massively, multiplayer online galaxy I thought "nice, I'll have some of that." Sucks to be me I guess. I paid for strawberry and got raspberry. Why? Well apparently if it's a red fruit it's close enough. I didn't enjoy raspberry back then and don't like it so much now either.

I don't want to "dis" Frontier, I don't want to dump on the game (it's actually quite well done for what it is) I just want to know that I'll get the game I paid for. The one they advertise.

 

[baael]

There is only silence, so they dont care about it I think.

 

[Zeyphyr]

There is only silence, so they dont care about it I think.

^^ this

i think they´re realising what they did... just let SC be that empty shell ED is and it will be soooo much better... and that point ED will die, seriously...

 

[BLACKHOUND]

Because I know what words mean, I have spent over 20 years of my life studying language and how it is formed and used. What are your credentials, out of curiosity?

I can't help it if you are insisting on arguing from a standpoint based on ignorance.

Well, the definition of MMO according to Wikipedia is different than yours. Check this post. The definition is by itself "loose" so you coming here saying you have the one and only definition of MMO and yours is right is absolutely pedantic and self centered no matter how good your "credentials" are.

seems like we getting into semantics a little bit, what MMO is and what not: Wiki Definition is as follows

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet.[1]MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.

I highlighted a couple parts there as it does not state it HAS to be. the second part, we have to see how the promised Wings is going to be.
Now, nowhere does it seem to say that all players have to be able to be all together in one space. it does allow a large number of players to be on simultaneously, in the same universe after all, solo, groups and open all share the same universe and everyone affects it, albeit in a minuscule way. If you look at some threads on here, people claim to have started expansions into neighboring systems by supporting factions. so looking at it this way, i think the label still fits.

And now for a different Definition, this time lifted form Urban Dictionary:

acronym for Massively Multiplayer Online game. MMOs usually involve a free download and recurring monthly fee for gameplay. The most popular MMOs areMMORPGs. One such game is World of Warcraft

again, note the usually in there, because ED has it just backwards from that. you in essence pay for the download but have no recurring monthly fee.

so we can go around the table with this, my point is, MMO is a bit a subjective term as different people interpret it differently, if taken to court it would be the question how a judge would define it unless somewhere it has a very fixed definition in a law somewhere.

as it has been mentioned above too, WoT is defined as an MMO, other then over the sight of your cannon you don't see or meet other people and even then, its a matchmaker that puts you in a room with 29 other people, or less.
i think a big unknown right now is how Wings will change this game, what it will bring to the table. after all, this game has not even been out a month. i for one, personally, have fun with it. i do play open and i run into other players fairly often now that i returned to the core systems a bit more from the frontier i was in. most people don't even talk when you give them a friendly hail. guess they out there looking for giant space rats

Spoiler

Edit: you guys want going to make me want to fire up WoT again, lol

So please spare us your "credentials".... you did not research your subject... maybe you need 21 years not just 20...

Cheers!!

 

[JeffRyan]

^^ this

i think they´re realising what they did... just let SC be that empty shell ED is and it will be soooo much better... and that point ED will die, seriously...

We're all doomed I tell you. Doomed. In the meantime, I'm having fun. And so are the friends I've recommended to the game. I wish people would provide evidence when saying the game isn't working. Most reviews: positive, most user reviews: positive. Most negative reviews have come from people unhappy with the offline decision (understandable) or people not able to handle losing everything (understandable, but less sympathy in terms of beating on the game because of it).

 

[agent1138]

MMO OF THE YEAR!

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Well, the definition of MMO according to Wikipedia is different than yours. Check this post. The definition is by itself "loose" so you coming here saying you have the one and only definition of MMO and yours is right is absolutely pedantic and self centered no matter how good your "credentials" are.



So please spare us your "credentials".... you did not research your subject... maybe you need 21 years not just 20...

Cheers!!

Quotes Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary to an academic as viable sources and expects to be taken even remotely seriously. Good one. Love it.

"My dog's got no nose."
"How does it smell?"
"Terrible"

Not a great joke, granted, but still better than yours.

 

[BLACKHOUND]

I just want to point out that I believe that the multiplayers limitation (32 players in same instance) was created by FD with the goal of moving the game to console. Console games have higher bandwidth limitations and this way when they move Elite Dangerous on consoles they won't have to change the network code and every platforms will be connected to the same world (PC+mac+consoles).

my 2 cents...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Quotes Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary to an academic as viable sources and expects to be taken even remotely seriously. Good one. Love it.

"My dog's got no nose."
"How does it smell?"
"Terrible"

Not a great joke, granted, but still better than yours.

go fart your academic credentials somewhere else please. I wanted to buy the New Bansidhe I know Everything Dictionary but I beleive the only copies left are buried at the same place they trew away all the left over copies of the ET video game.

You can argue what MMO means word by word but it is irrelevant because you have to take into account of how it is used in the "real world". I beleive the Wikipedia definition reflects that.

 

[BLACKHOUND]

Wait there is a storm coming! I see a great spiral cloud !!! It's turning! It's a great storm!

Ohh wait it is only milk in my teacup!

 

[Sendraks]

Why are you talking about the player base again? Because it's still irrelevant.

Because you were being unclear in your post. My recommendation is to be clearer next time.

Still, what's at the core of a MMO is a large number of players THAT CAN PLAY TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME,

And what is the threshold of player numbers where a game stops being an MMO and becomes multiplayer?
Does a game stop being an MMO when the player enters an instance? Both GW and D&DO are considered to be MMOs, yet the vast majority of the game takes place in instances with a very limited number of players. World of Tanks is considered to be an MMO, yet doesn't offer a signficantly different experience to BF 4.

And there are other such mechanics, but the idea that MMOs revolve around persistent worlds are pretty much the plague of the genre, as having persistent elements alone don't magically make a game a MMO: as a result, you can find persistent elements in many online, non-massive games, and then, there are few MMOs attempting something else.

Right, so we're in agreement that the definition of MMO is very broad. Clearly trying to define an MMO by the number of players in any one place at any one time is both arbitrary and a nonsense, so that isn't worth pursuing either.

There's clearly a persistent aspect in Elite: Dangerous, but that alone doesn't make it a MMO, and looking at its depth, it's clearly not enough to support a massive playerbase either, making it a poor argument to support the idea that it's a MMO.

No, no no. Again, you're conflating "poor at being an MMO" with "not actually being an MMO."

I can understand that folk are upset that ED is not delivering a very good MMO experience. I'm not trying to defend ED's MMO experience and nor am I trying to persuade anyone that because ED is an MMO (and it clearly is), that this somehow detracts from the criticisms being made of the MMO experience.

 

[AlexRyder]

Until few days before release, the description "massive multiplayer online adventure" was being used on the elite dangerous main website.

They have now changed that.

Doesn't bother me personally, but that's what it said.

And that's exactly what it is.

 

[JeffRyan]

And that's exactly what it is.

Indeed. This whole argument confuses me and always has when it's come up.

 

[Zeyphyr]

We're all doomed I tell you. Doomed. In the meantime, I'm having fun. And so are the friends I've recommended to the game. I wish people would provide evidence when saying the game isn't working. Most reviews: positive, most user reviews: positive. Most negative reviews have come from people unhappy with the offline decision (understandable) or people not able to handle losing everything (understandable, but less sympathy in terms of beating on the game because of it).

Nope, not true... We´re not doomed... The guys playing ED and havin fun aren´t doomed... But in the last couple of weeks there were decisions i can´t handle with. What is ED going to be in a few months? In a year? And pls don´t tell me it´s going to be the #1 spacesim of epicness! Cause it won´t... And i don´t give a .... about Reviews! Seriously?

 

[baael]

go fart your academic credentials somewhere else please

to add a little humor to this

"in space no one can hear you fart"

View attachment 7380

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

You can argue what MMO means word by word but it is irrelevant because you have to take into account of how it is used in the "real world". I beleive the Wikipedia definition reflects that.

In "the real world" I hear the word jealous used in place of the word envious. Doesn't suddenly give them the same meaning. It just makes the speaker wrong

In "the real world" I frequently hear people call Sydney the Capital of Australia. Maybe we should tell the Canberrans that they have got it all wrong?

Mostly, however, in the real world I hear people using the correct words for the concepts they are attempting to discuss because as an intellectual I spend most of my time surrounded by other intellectuals. I don't hear the Urban Dictionary's idea of what stuff is because I associate with people who know better. I don't need to look up everything on Wikipedia because I spend my time with people who WRITE real encyclopaedias not those who misunderstand them.

You are referring to opinion and taking the stance that opinion will supersede fact if stated frequently enough. This isn't really the case. Of course people are entitled to their opinion but if they state opinions they are left liable to be shown to be wrong by fact. The reality is there are a lot of people in this world who don't know as much as they think they know about the topics they opine on.