ANNOUNCEMENT Elite Dangerous: Odyssey Announcement

[Sinister Evil]

The problem is its a group activity at heart, but assumes you know whats best hence your feelings on it- FD gave us no in game way to organise relying on forums like Reddit initially and then Discord (today). Its doubly ironic as Powerplay is really a prototype for squadrons really, and in reality the two should have been transposed so squadrons was in 1.3 after wings and Powerplay much later.

The issue I see with PP is that the "fairness" aspect of it is completely broken. Let me give you a keen example in what broke me several times after trying to get into PP.

So 2 factions going for a system, one going for control, other is trying to undermine. The faction trying to control is a combat faction, meaning that their members go there and fight in conflict zones, and each kill gives 10 merits/points toward controlling that system. Now combat is the only way a combat faction can spread, they have no other options other then go there and kill.

Now the undermining faction trying to stop their expansion is a "transport" based one, meaning they get items from the power contact in their home or controlled system, then deliver them for 1 merit/point toward controlling the system for 1 item.

So lets pretends its 1 vs 1

The transport player can hit solo/private play to avoid the opposing combat player, and transport 600+ units per run. That would require the combat player to score 60+ kills for every transport run the other player does.... which is just impossible. With solo/private groups, the current system is just not fair, so it really need to get reworked to attain some balance. At the moment PP is dead because, its simply not fair, thus not attractive when there are other things one can do with BGS and minor factions attached to squadrons. Till those issues of fairness are addressed PP is pretty much just something people do to get the desirable faction modules.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The problem being Powerplay was supposed to be a BGS+ but wound up in no-mans land- 5 years on the 'real' BGS has supplanted it with updates so Powerplay really can't be another layer of it or a duplicate. If its to thrive it needs to be different otherwise whats the point to it? The other irony is that Powerplay is unpopular because of its PvE- because PvE is grind in Powerplay because you have to do lots of it.

It can easily be another layer, they just need to mostly rip out whats there and redo. I would also stop PMFs too. You can push the factions that are there and/or push a power or do both at the same time depending on your actions.

If done properly, it could really make the bubble a dynamic place with major changes taking place depending on what power has influence in the system.

There is nothing stopping that from happening. I was never a big fan of PMF. You should either choose one that's already in game or don't back one at all.

 

[kilvenny]

I would remove PP except for the Powers themselves and then make every minor faction declare for a power or be independent. System control belongs to the power with the most influence based on sum of the minor factions in the system. Independent minor factions do not sum, the system becomes independent if one of the minor factions has greater influence than the largest of the summed powers. All activity in a system contributes to influence. Players not assigned to a minor faction are treated as independent.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The issue I see with PP is that the "fairness" aspect of it is completely broken. Let me give you a keen example in what broke me several times after trying to get into PP.

So 2 factions going for a system, one going for control, other is trying to undermine. The faction trying to control is a combat faction, meaning that their members go there and fight in conflict zones, and each kill gives 10 merits/points toward controlling that system. Now combat is the only way a combat faction can spread, they have no other options other then go there and kill.

Now the undermining faction trying to stop their expansion is a "transport" based one, meaning they get items from the power contact in their home or controlled system, then deliver them for 1 merit/point toward controlling the system for 1 item.

So lets pretends its 1 vs 1

The transport player can hit solo/private play to avoid the opposing combat player, and transport 600+ units per run. That would require the combat player to score 60+ kills for every transport run the other player does.... which is just impossible. With solo/private groups, the current system is just not fair, so it really need to get reworked to attain some balance. At the moment PP is dead because, its simply not fair, thus not attractive when there are other things one can do with BGS and minor factions attached to squadrons. Till those issues of fairness are addressed PP is pretty much just something people do to get the desirable faction modules.

To be fair groups like FUC deal with it well enough, but I get your point. To me though in the current design the issue is of modes- if everything comes from a central place to a place, that means you know where the enemy will be. With modes thats irrelevant, but in an Open only context it becomes a weakness to exploit.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It can easily be another layer, they just need to mostly rip out whats there and redo. I would also stop PMFs too. You can push the factions that are there and/or push a power or do both at the same time depending on your actions.

If done properly, it could really make the bubble a dynamic place with major changes taking place depending on what power has influence in the system.

There is nothing stopping that from happening. I was never a big fan of PMF. You should either choose one that's already in game or don't back one at all.

And I'd love a rework and suggested things like you say like this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-mechanics-that-work-with-the-new-bgs.508604/

Or maybe https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/powerplay-v-2-using-squadron-megaship-mechanics.408451/

I just can't see FD sweeping PMFs away though (too much work and player time invested) whereas it is theatrically easier to have a near self contained Powerplay.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

And I'd love a rework and suggested things like you say like this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-mechanics-that-work-with-the-new-bgs.508604/

Or maybe https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/powerplay-v-2-using-squadron-megaship-mechanics.408451/

I just can't see FD sweeping PMFs away though (too much work and player time invested) whereas it is theatrically easier to have a near self contained Powerplay.

The current PMFs can stay as there is really no difference to any other faction. People just need to understand that they don't own them.

 

[Sphinx2k]

So what happened to the new Ice Planet shaders they were working on 2 years ago?

TWITCH CLIP

Weren't these supposed to come in BEYOND?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So what happened to the new Ice Planet shaders they were working on 2 years ago?

TWITCH CLIP

View attachment 178211


Weren't these supposed to come in BEYOND?

Hopefully part of the new tech that's coming in Odyssey and Horizons.

 

[Faded Glory]

Hopefully part of the new tech that's coming in Odyssey and Horizons.

Hmmm... So, FD are going to give away a significant part of the first paid DLC in years by adding the 'new tech' to Horizons. I hope you're right.

But that's assuming that dropping VR totally from Odyssey is simply down to issues around implementing it for FPS gameplay and nothing to do with the 'new tech'. If that's the case, it would surely make much more sense from a business perspective to continue supporting VR for flight and SRV driving in Odyssey so everybody wants to buy it.

Like I said, I hope you are right. Genuinely. Mind you, I'd have expected them to have mentioned that by now with the feedback that they've had. "Hey everybody, while we understand that there's disappointment around no VR in Odyssey, Horizons will be getting the graphical updates, so they will be available to VR players launching the game from Horizons."

 

[VR andysonofbob]

Not sure if HL:Alyx does this or not though as I have not bought the game.

What??
If you can get it, get it. It's really REALLY good.

I can, however, see how VR players could have an advantage not only over non-VR players using a controller but possibly even over non-VR players using a keyboard and mouse. Even though you have to use the thumb sticks to move like a controller you still get accurate firing because of being able to use your real hands to aim and shoot and you can look around with your real head, but even better you can more easily hide behind obstacles and shoot around corners way more realistically.

If I had to choose between fighting pancake or VR for money. I would go pancake everytime. Discaimer, I haven't played cross platform VR vs non VR
BUT
I have played 3D and pancake.

3D - Ask anyone who has played games in any form of S3D. On 2D you don't need to refocus as all objects are at screen depth. To look ahead, you just look ahead. In 3D you need to refocus and then target. You must have noticed in Serious Sam that it isn't as easy to track opponents as it was in 2D. But at least in SS baddies come in waves so they are obvious and easy to spot and track. In proper shooters, where your opponents aren't coming in waves and you need to spot them, it take a noticable increase in time to track. I am talking over a second before you can zero in on them. That's HUGE!!!

Also, I suspect controls - Firing blind around a rock doesn't help unless you are really lucky. It doesn't in HL:A, RoboRecall or pretty much every game I have played in VR. Sure you have access to the same controls but your head moves so you can't keep the crosshair at head height. Bouncing in and out of cover is no where near as easy to do in VR as in pancake.

TBH I am way to old and slow to play FPSs now. Is there any shooter where you can cross platform VR? I bet if you were being competative you would go pancake!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Hmmm... So, FD are going to give away a significant part of the first paid DLC in years by adding the 'new tech' to Horizons. I hope you're right.

They have already said that horizons planets will get visual updates and use the tech they are using in Odyssey. Obviously if you only have horizons, you won't be able to land on the atmospheric planets that are coming in Odyssey.

But that's assuming that dropping VR totally from Odyssey is simply down to issues around implementing it for FPS gameplay and nothing to do with the 'new tech'. If that's the case, it would surely make much more sense from a business perspective to continue supporting VR for flight and SRV driving in Odyssey so everybody wants to buy it.

It would be a game client issue though. How do you stop Odyssey from working in VR when you get out of your seat if VR is supported. What I can see happening is a VR client that only allows you to land on those planets but doesn't allow elite feet in any way at all, or they could make them two different paid for DLCs. Planets and the Elite Feet section.

Like I said, I hope you are right. Genuinely. Mind you, I'd have expected them to have mentioned that by now with the feedback that they've had. "Hey everybody, while we understand that there's disappointment around no VR in Odyssey, Horizons will be getting the graphical updates, so they will be available to VR players launching the game from Horizons."

The have mentioned it already. Horizons planets will be using the newer tech. It would have to work in horizons so a player that's winged up with someone in Odyssey are driving around on a non atmospheric planet are singing from the same hymn sheet. It would make no sense to not add the new tech for horizons players.

 

[Faded Glory]

They have already said that horizons planets will get visual updates and use the tech they are using in Odyssey. Obviously if you only have horizons, you won't be able to land on the atmospheric planets that are coming in Odyssey.

Oh well, I must have missed that. Do you have a link, I'd be interested to see it.

Although it might be nice to land on planets with tenuous atmospheres, I can't see that adding much gameplay, and if all planets get a graphical update, then perhaps launching from Horizons won't be so bad.

 

[F4fred]

I find it funny how many people don't realise that this is precisely the case. As a game, Elite is a shallow, mind-boggling grind-fest, with terribly implemented multiplayer, and downright incompetent (powerplay? engineers? no risk vs reward, carrier decomissioning) game design solutions.

VR transforms the "game" into an "experience".

Without VR, it's a 6/10.



They still won't reply after 400 pages. I'm not holding my breath for ANY message about this. Maybe a week before launch we will learn "we will consider adding VR support some time after launch WITH NO DEFINITE DATE". Then the topic will never be spoken about again.

Calling it now.

And yet for such a badly done game they have hit record logins with the launch of Fleet Carriers. Also I don’t find engineering a grind at all. Unlocking the engineers was fun, have to try a bit of every game play. Collecting materials I do mostly while doing the stuff I enjoy with the occasional top up for specific things.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Oh well, I must have missed that. Do you have a link, I'd be interested to see it.

It was one of the streams. Can't remember which one though.

Although it might be nice to land on planets with tenuous atmospheres, I can't see that adding much gameplay, and if all planets get a graphical update, then perhaps launching from Horizons won't be so bad.

We don't know what gameplay tenuous atmospheric planets will give us yet.

 

[thistle]

Please put this project on hold ...

Good grief no.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

What??
If you can get it, get it. It's really REALLY good.



If I had to choose between fighting pancake or VR for money. I would go pancake everytime. Discaimer, I haven't played cross platform VR vs non VR
BUT
I have played 3D and pancake.

3D - Ask anyone who has played games in any form of S3D. On 2D you don't need to refocus as all objects are at screen depth. To look ahead, you just look ahead. In 3D you need to refocus and then target. You must have noticed in Serious Sam that it isn't as easy to track opponents as it was in 2D. But at least in SS baddies come in waves so they are obvious and easy to spot and track. In proper shooters, where your opponents aren't coming in waves and you need to spot them, it take a noticable increase in time to track. I am talking over a second before you can zero in on them. That's HUGE!!!

Also, I suspect controls - Firing blind around a rock doesn't help unless you are really lucky. It doesn't in HL:A, RoboRecall or pretty much every game I have played in VR. Sure you have access to the same controls but your head moves so you can't keep the crosshair at head height. Bouncing in and out of cover is no where near as easy to do in VR as in pancake.

TBH I am way to old and slow to play FPSs now. Is there any shooter where you can cross platform VR? I bet if you were being competative you would go pancake!

Detached has cross play, pvp, vr and I think they even added a pancake option for the depth-challenged folks.

Source: https://youtu.be/CGecTrjiRh0

 

[F4fred]

I'm not really interested in conspiracy theories and speculation, I just want to know what's going on from FDev. If they have said something before they can say it again, and if it's ambiguous they can clarify.

Seems pretty simple to me. Engage with the unironically enthusiastic fans of the game, be honest in intent even if it cannot be in execution (ie delays) because of lockdown or other staffing issues and the average revenue per customer could double or more with supportive cosmetic purchases from a happier community.

And what do you base that revenue forecast on? Can we see the extensive market research that lead you to that conclusion?

 

[jojon]

They have already said that horizons planets will get visual updates and use the tech they are using in Odyssey.
...

Well... What I heard Piers say, was that "old planets" would be getting a facelift . Do you have a more categorically assuring source, that I have missed?

I can't make myself jump to the conclusion that the above would necessarily mean that this new coat of paint would "trickle down" to Horizons; Our current landable planets could very well turn out to be rendered differently between Horizons and Odyssey, like their seen-from-space representations are, as it stands, between base game and Horizons, without his statement being technically untrue.

When I hear the talk about "new era", that will enable stuff for the future, I must say it does not at all make me think of getting a bipedal meat SRV, but more about something like a rebuilt-from-the-ground-up code framework, that has provisions thought out and set in place, for future expansions.

Now, if such a hypothetical new framework, substituting a hypothetical old one with duct-taped spaghetti extensions, is so evolved that it can not incorporate the old "hacky" VR implementation... How optimistically can one expect anything from that new and shiny stuff to readily plug back into to old?

I am half wondering if part of the fleet carrier delay might have been so that it would work together with both the old and the new codebase. :7

 

[thistle]

They have already said that horizons planets will get visual updates and use the tech they are using in Odyssey. Obviously if you only have horizons, you won't be able to land on the atmospheric planets that are coming in Odyssey.

I think they confirmed the Horizons planets IN Odyssey will get the new tech. Not that the Horizons planets in Horizons will get it. If you see what I mean.

It was the pcgamer interview I think, and he was talking only about Odyssey and how the existing planets (ie Horizons planets) would get the new tech.

 

[F4fred]

Please put this project on hold, and fix what exists!

1 - Power play and BGS have become a massive part of what keeps players going. Currently do to the structure of how power play works with open, solo, and private play groups it's... well, not working well. As an example is your part of a faction that wants to expand to another system and uses combat, but your up against another faction that uses transport your basically doomed. The power play faction that uses transportation can just go to solo mode and transport 600+ bits of power play data per run, which would require the combat faction to get 60 kills per run the "single" transport does. Due to the fact solo and private groups include power play, this leaves the combat players in open no way to stop or hinder their transport to the contested system. While my solution would simply be to remove access to power play from solo/private groups since it is by its nature player vs player, I know that wont happen, but I would ask it be looked into and redesigned so it's at least fair in terms of everyone's ability to compete and hamper the other players from pushing their own power ahead. To anyone saying NPC's attack the transports, I'd like to note the ability and skill of the most dreaded NPC's are still only half that of a player, and almost everyone knows to ditch an npc attacker you just submit to interdiction, then boost and FSD back out to your destination till you reach it.

2 - Fleet carrier still have a lot of bugs, and simplicity of use issues. From making price adjustments quicker so people dont have to sit with their finger on the mouse or arrow key for 5 minutes to set something to 1000% GA, to making GA more realistic. I mean the best sell for LTD are 1,600,000'ish, but the GA is 50,000'ish. Thats like saying the average price of a jumbo jet is $5 because most people in the world would gladly take one for a dollar while only a couple thousand would/could pay the full price. It in no way reflects a true average, which is a serious flaw in the BGS for that particular system.



I love how this game reaches and makes it's goals, but for every expansion I think it's important that it's filled with viable substance, and this game does need some serious work with "some" existing systems. If an expansion is needed to get the game more money, just put it on pre-order, I am sure a lot of players here would happily front the cash, but pls pls put some work into PP and FC before we expand gameplay more!

I doubt you could take away Powerplay from solo and PG without howls of dismay from people who only played those modes, but still want to get the nice toys! I suppose you could make the merits earned count much less for solo and PG. you still get your 750 merits for a shiny new toy, but they only count as 75 for the purposes of determining who is winning in a given system.