Elite Dangerous - Powerplay 2.0 Merit Changes

No, the game does not need more negative inputs.

It is merely a whish from a very small group, to justify their in-game behavior.
This is Powerplay, which is oppositional by design.

Undermining is one of the two key forces present in Powerplay and if it doesn't balance Reinforcement then in the long term (and not necessarily all that long, either [1]) every system gets reinforced up to be a Stronghold for someone and that's that. I wouldn't even describe Undermining as negative - from my point of view, Undermining of Grom is a positive action, and Reinforcement of Grom is a negative action.

Crime is listed as an Undermining activity, so it should be effective at that proportionate to the time and costs involved in doing it.


[1] At current rates, there appears to be enough net Reinforcement going on to make every bubble system a max-strength Stronghold in just three years. Given that Frontier spent at least two years developing Powerplay 2, I think they were hoping it would last longer than that before it was "finished".
 
Undermining of Grom is a positive action, and Reinforcement of Grom is a negative action.

My character is a Neo-Abolitionist, so to me undermining Zemina “make slavery cruel again” Torval is a positive action, and the reinforcement of her agenda is a negative one….

The less said about her attitude toward Federation Corporate States the better. ;)
 
Criminal behavior doesn't need to be incentivized unless the crime and punishment system is also revised to give it real consequence. People are already clamouring to do it, and in terms of lore/realism, terroristic activitiy isn't as effective as terrorists like to believe it is. It tends to galvanize opposition and put off moderate sympathizers.
 
Criminal behavior doesn't need to be incentivized unless the crime and punishment system is also revised to give it real consequence. People are already clamouring to do it, and in terms of lore/realism, terroristic activitiy isn't as effective as terrorists like to believe it is. It tends to galvanize opposition and put off moderate sympathizers.
Are you for real?

You are penalised with:

Bounties (that quickly escalate into the billions)
Wanted status (so locked out of controlling stations)
Notoriety
ATR

Currently for me each kill is 44 merits, for nearly 4 million in bounty, notoriety, ATR + sec response. So PvE wise its punished just fine, and frankly its far batter than how Powers police themselves.

And such activity is in Powerplays character- its you showing a local population their benefactors can't protect them. Its not for all powers, but for some it is.
 
Criminal behavior doesn't need to be incentivized unless the crime and punishment system is also revised to give it real consequence. People are already clamouring to do it, and in terms of lore/realism, terroristic activitiy isn't as effective as terrorists like to believe it is. It tends to galvanize opposition and put off moderate sympathizers.
You clearly have not been put into a 20 hour timeout because you capped notoriety out at 10 after undermining for a couple hours only to switch task to load commodities onto a carrier and get into a literal fender bender in the mail slot in a totally unrelated ship, obtaining a 200cr fine that can't be paid for 20 hours then being forced to either leave your game client running for the next 20 hours or suffer the next 20 hours of gameplay without the ability to do anything you actually want to do for your objectives because you locked yourself out of all stations the faction controlling the territory you got into a fender bender.
 
Are you for real?

You are penalised with:

Bounties (that quickly escalate into the billions)
Wanted status (so locked out of controlling stations)
Notoriety
ATR

Currently for me each kill is 44 merits, for nearly 4 million in bounty, notoriety, ATR + sec response. So PvE wise its punished just fine, and frankly its far batter than how Powers police themselves.

And such activity is in Powerplays character- its you showing a local population their benefactors can't protect them. Its not for all powers, but for some it is.

Exactly. I'm not that mad about the bounties and that notoriety in acquisition and undermining is there but it's too fast with settlelment work. Even a discriminating killer can't get very much done without racking up 8 hours of notoriety trying to do any undermining in settlements which is really all the truely available work there is to do. I really like that it's an option because serial dropping for spawns is awful but you rack up 4 to 6 with ease just killing the ones you more or less have to kill given 30 to 60 seconds needed near the terminals.

I don't think it should be removed but it could use a further scale-down. I actually like the aspect of planning how to approach it to maintain an operational port and not be in trouble in the home system but the refusal to allow payment of fines under the system does suck. An errant bullet at a megaship scenario, the sys auth flying themselves into your released stream of bullets, the T9 that decides to drop down in front of the slot just as you enter it all meaning that you are just done there now till tomorrow, or next week if you don't sit on the pad AFK is not great game mechanics.

Also there is NO reward to crime outside PP2. All missions for crime are garbage money other than 'go shoot up Orcas'. In no sane vision of crime does one say: "Hey you can haul these here legal clothes from A to B for 5 million or if you step in the back here and smuggle some dope we can hook you up with 3 or 4 hundred K. No? Well maybe you could also tear your hair out pulling 80T of <FISH> from T9's in high sec with PDCs and escorts for a couple hundred thousand less? Why are you leaving? This is a hell of an oppertunity!".



LOL.
 
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Exactly. I'm not that mad about the bounties and that notoriety in acquisition and undermining but it's too fast with settlelment work. Even a discriminating killer can't get very much done without racking up 8 hours of notoriety trying to do any undermining in settlements which is really all the truely available work there is to do. I really like that it's an option because serial dropping for spawns is awful but you rack up 4 to 6 with ease just killing the ones you more or less have to kill given 30 to 60 seconds needed near the terminals.

I don't think it should be removed but it could use a further scale-down. I actually like the aspect of planning how to approach it to maintain an operational port and not be in trouble in the home system but the refusal to allow payment of fines under the system does suck. An errant bullet at a megaship scenario, the sys auth flying themselves into your released stream of bullets, the T9 that decides to drop down in front of the slot just as you enter it all meaning that you are just done there now till tomorrow, or next week if you don't sit on the pad AFK is not great game mechanics.

Also there is NO reward to crime outside PP2. All missions for are garbage money other than 'go shoot up Orcas'. In no sane vision of crime does one say: "Hey you can haul these here legal clothes from A to B for 5 million or if you step in the back here and smuggle some dope we can hook you up with 3 or 4 hundred K. No? Well maybe you could also tear your hair out pulling 80T of <FISH> from T9's in high sec with PDCs and escorts for a couple hundred thousand less? Why are you leaving? This is a hell of an oppertunity!".



LOL.
For me crime should be what sniping was for Powerplay 1- shock and awe tactics that in PP2 are effective front loaded efforts but costly. Its a nitrous oxide boost for your power that if overused blows up in your face...

So you have two 'tracks' of effort- legal and methodical that favour stability and long term benefit, or chaotic short term gains which while impressive become ever more a gamble the more you do it.
 
And on the legal side here, I can run donation missions at 10 merits/ton minimum, and be reasonably certain of making the credits I spent acquiring those donations by topping off my cargo hold with high margin commodities while earning a few extra merits…

Or I can run those same donation missions while undermining for 4 merits/ton, and lose even more money by “flooding the markets.” Halfway through my undermining session last night, I’d started taking some normal fetch and return missions, just to replenish my reserves and make use of extra cargo space.
 
And on the legal side here, I can run donation missions at 10 merits/ton minimum, and be reasonably certain of making the credits I spent acquiring those donations by topping off my cargo hold with high margin commodities while earning a few extra merits…

Or I can run those same donation missions while undermining for 4 merits/ton, and lose even more money by “flooding the markets.” Halfway through my undermining session last night, I’d started taking some normal fetch and return missions, just to replenish my reserves and make use of extra cargo space.
If FD want more systems = more vulnerability, really that has to be inverted or that there are modifiers that add extra requirements the more systems you have*

*dare I say....overheads?

/runs
 
I stand corrected, I thought it got released from ARX-only when the Mandalay released, but apparently was mistaken. Apologies for any premature celebratoryaction caused by my comment. :)
It’s always Black Friday in LYR systems, so even if it’s next week, it’s no big deal at all! ☺️
 
For any individual involved - provided it's not a result of an actual bug like the data duplication - no, of course not. There should at least be some short-term benefit to someone finding a good option!

The problem is more for game balance more widely.
- all ways of merit earning should be roughly balanced against each other at the top end: it shouldn't be "rares or nothing" if you just want to make lots of merits quickly - though in any particular system, one might be better than another today because of what stations there are, or what mining opportunities, or what BGS states, etc.
- if you have an activity where the "normal" way of doing it is very slow compared with the "quick" way of doing it, that creates a balance problem for the activity.

So for example from the escape pods activity instead:
- blowing up passenger ships at an Anarchy tourist beacon is a much quicker (and consequence-free) way to get escape pods than hunting round a few signal sources at once
- so "balance to the top end" says that escape pods should be worth very little individually, because you can obtain them hundreds at a time
- but almost no systems have Anarchy government and a tourist beacon, so that means that in almost all cases escape pods aren't worth the effort of picking up

For escape pods to be possible to balance with the rest, therefore, that super-fast activity needs to be prevented/slowed down/something so that it's not so out of line. Or alternatively that sort of number of escape pods needs to be available much more generally rather than every salvage signal source just having 5 or so.

So the same with rares: if they balance rares to the rate a carrier can achieve and that's 3 times better than with a normal ship (which doesn't seem at all implausible looking at the tripling of the mean delivery in rare goods CGs after carriers were introduced), the per-tonne payout ends up potentially so small that rares are perfectly competitive if you use a carrier well but essentially worthless if you don't.

Thank you for your detailed explanation. I still have a few questions, and I hope you don’t mind if I share them.

I completely agree that maintaining overall balance in the game is important. However, I feel the reasoning provided doesn’t seem to directly justify imposing restrictions specifically on Fleet Carriers. If rare goods trading is considered too powerful, isn’t there room to argue that adjusting the mechanics of rare goods trading itself could be a more appropriate approach?

As for the reason provided for the claim that Fleet Carriers are “three times more efficient,” I find myself somewhat skeptical. When I conducted a rough analysis while participating in PP2.0 activities, I couldn’t find a way to achieve such extreme efficiency with an FC. Even with a ship customized for long-range travel, performing repeated deliveries of rare goods to target systems seemed sufficiently efficient to me.

Furthermore, even if Fleet Carriers could theoretically achieve three times the efficiency, wouldn’t that simply represent a fair return on the significant investment they require? As others have pointed out, the principle of “high risk, high reward” seems natural, and similarly, “high investment, high return” feels like a reasonable expectation. And as the example of the Anaconda versus the Adder demonstrates, it seems that many of us unconsciously accept this reality.
 
Furthermore, even if Fleet Carriers could theoretically achieve three times the efficiency, wouldn’t that simply represent a fair return on the significant investment they require? As others have pointed out, the principle of “high risk, high reward” seems natural, and similarly, “high investment, high return” feels like a reasonable expectation. And as the example of the Anaconda versus the Adder demonstrates, it seems that many of us unconsciously accept this reality.

FC's were never meant to be an "I win" button for Powerplay 2.0 or for any other new game mode FD is planning to introduce. ED is supposed to be everybody's equitable playground and not solely for the benefit of fleet carrier owners.
 
However, I feel the reasoning provided doesn’t seem to directly justify imposing restrictions specifically on Fleet Carriers. If rare goods trading is considered too powerful, isn’t there room to argue that adjusting the mechanics of rare goods trading itself could be a more appropriate approach?
Certainly - how the imbalance is resolved could happen in a wide number of ways, and that Frontier haven't gone for the relatively easy option of "FC storage cancels merits" and re-enabled rare trading suggests that they might be at least trying to do something more interesting.
 
Certainly - how the imbalance is resolved could happen in a wide number of ways, and that Frontier haven't gone for the relatively easy option of "FC storage cancels merits" and re-enabled rare trading suggests that they might be at least trying to do something more interesting.
Assuming they aren't working on waterslide queues and janitors not empyting bins
 
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