Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers

[Kubicide]

You are perhaps forgetting that from the very outset Elite was designed to be a sandbox space simulator FIRST before it is a game.

Also, it is an evolving entity so you will all just have to be patient.

Well, they failed miserably then because Elite is absolutely not a sandbox game. One cannot change their game environment nor can they control the story line. Objects are fixed and cannot be destroyed or created and brought into the world. FDev control the ACSII based text story line with the story arcs posted in Galnet that have no in-game connection to in game characters - one has to use their imagination as NPCs do not do anything related to or in support of the story. So many folks seem to misunderstand what a sandbox game is. Others have correctly posted (in other threads) that Elite is really just a group of minigames for players to play together in a shared world and shared database. But it's not a sandbox.

The comparison to Battlefront is actually a good one: Elite looks pretty, sounds nice but lacks a real storyline, character interaction, depth and soul. It's lifeless and repetitious game play with simple push button operations as difficult as a common arcade game (it's far from a simulation). That's why it was easy to sell on xBox as it really does offer just an arcade game experience like Battlefront.

 

[Armour]

Those behind this endeavour have no creativity, because they recognise the technical realities that define their chosen architecture, the fiscal realities that define their available resources, and have decided to therefore work to a plan that involves gradual advancements and additional layers. Mathematics has no poetry, no beauty, no creativity, let's not forget that implication.

What they need is an ideas man to take the reins, and make suggestions without pragmatism. Somehow this plan will work out great and the project won't sink under a sea of vague ideas, engine rewrites and endless blue-sky prototypes to rope in the rubes.

A cursory glance at this forum (and reddit) will present more than enough unrealistic suggestions to provide the heartless automatons of FDEV many a knowing laugh when they're not advancing the state of the art in gaming, or publishing their novels - which probably consist of a bunch of pseudocode or something. Bleep beep.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Yes, without improvements they won't keep selling at this rate.

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I don't really see how that has anything to do with the game though considering it is in constant development...



*meanwhile in the thread next door people predict absolute doom unless FD stop this constant focus on multiplayer content*

Back in the real world they will do a little bit of both...

Case in point:

2.1 Missions, Engineers, NPC mission givers, further improvements to minor faction interactions and so on...
2.3 Multicrew

The biggest problem FD has is that people seem to forget that ED has only been in development for 3 years...which is nothing in the grand scheme of things for a game of this nature, especially since everyone can feel the potential for what this could be further down the line. And people want all the things right this moment. They also want it for free...god forbid if they have to pay for expansions!!!

Listen to Tinman he knows what he is talking about. E.D is Frontiers baby or milk cow. I think development will go on as long as people play the game, get constant updates, are in touch with the devs, and feel new content is being added which they like. With 2.1 many bugs will be fixed and new content added. And so it will go on this year. The Dev updates from Michael, the newsletter and the constant updates and speculations will keep this game going. Ive quit Wow 2 times but come back for more with new expansions. Its like feeding a cat, it always comes back for more. A little cuddling and food and its happy.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Horizons is a tech demo for 50 bucks.

No, change the price tag by a factor of 1000, & you're actually talking about Star Citizen. By all means, if you loathe Elite: Dangerous so much, then please feel free to sample that game instead....assuming you can afford the price tag. For my part, though I definitely think the game can do with improvement (which it is regularly getting, btw) it has sucked up more of my spare time than any game since the Civilization franchise, & has proven to be fantastic value for money. Still, haters gonna hate.

 

[jpaulwilson1982]

I wouldn't say Elite is lifeless as there is an opportunity for groups to impact the Elite Universe. But we need more CGs with counter-CGs to give players more ability to influence the unfolding of events. That would be a great start to give the game more life and personality. NPCs also need to be more interactive. We know FD can program NPCs to approach and interact with players (when NPCs approach you with with counter-missions to whatever mission you're on). We need much more of that. One last thing that would help would be to have more unique objects to find in space and on planets (more crashed ships, more mysterious alien structures, more artefacts and other retrievable items that have their own unique look like the UAs and not just another canister with a different name and value, and the ability to go out and actually find aliens where they are at rather than restrict alien discoveries by locking large numbers of systems).

I love Elite, and I understand its a work-in-progress. I'm just hoping that FD continues to listen to its fans and reasonably responds to that demand.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I wouldn't say Elite is lifeless as there is an opportunity for groups to impact the Elite Universe. But we need more CGs with counter-CGs to give players more ability to influence the unfolding of events. That would be a great start to give the game more life and personality. NPCs also need to be more interactive. We know FD can program NPCs to approach and interact with players (when NPCs approach you with with counter-missions to whatever mission you're on). We need much more of that. One last thing that would help would be to have more unique objects to find in space and on planets (more crashed ships, more mysterious alien structures, more artefacts and other retrievable items that have their own unique look like the UAs and not just another canister with a different name and value, and the ability to go out and actually find aliens where they are at rather than restrict alien discoveries by locking large numbers of systems).

I love Elite, and I understand its a work-in-progress. I'm just hoping that FD continues to listen to its fans and reasonably responds to that demand.

One of the things coming out of the Dev Updates lately is how they're trying to make the mission givers within each faction more persistent, & that they are planning to make the missions tie in more directly with the current state of the system & the faction giving the mission-& thus providing the player with real feedback about the context of the mission, & what the success or failure of the mission actually means. I thing this is a fantastic step forward in terms of creating a coherent story-line, & just one of many that they have planned for this season. For me, season 1 was primarily about getting all the technical stuff up & running, season 2 is going to be about fleshing out the underlying story, & making players feel more of a part of the galaxy they're playing within.

 

[Jabezz]

You can't fault the amount of resource recruiting and personnel investment they are putting into it as is evident on their recruitment page:

http://www.frontier.co.uk/jobs/cambridge_vacancies/?pageNum_itemlist232=1&totalRows_itemlist=19

 

[Chongo]

Stay the course FD.

 

[metatheurgist]

Yes. But only in the sense that some think McGonagall a great poet, while others prefer Coleridge.

You're forgetting the truly great poets - Lil' Wayne, Kanye, Nicki Minaj, Macklemore.

 

[CMDR Valleys]

PLease could someone better at writing take up the idea of getting FD to create a mission builder for players/factions to allow the community to develop their own story lines for all. Think minecraft for ED experiences.... Hutton truckers trade route in a missions, distant worlds voyage with scan resources on route... Possibilities are endless and would even allow groups to develop complex and involved game play based on their unique faction ethos/play style.

CMDR Valleys

Desperate for a better mission mechanic that uses the enormous creativity of the community

 

[Cosmo]

Elite desperately needs the Engineers to just step away. Keep making ships and refining flight models. Sure.

But let someone else make the GAME going forward. Because right now you don't have a game. You have the best flight model in the history of space games, withering away inside a box full of RNG and disparate mechanics. No cohesion. No depth. And so it seems, no real end game for any single mechanic or set of them.

What will Exploration look like when its fully fleshed out? Or Trading? How about Wars and conflict between player factions? You probably don't even know. As far as you are concerned you plug in numbers and they work and all is well.

But its not well. The game...this loose grouping of independent mechanics totally without cohesion...its really not very good. At all.

It lacks depth. It lacks consistent rules. It lacks engaging pkay or emergent play. It lacks heart and soul.

It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

Yep Elite needs more depth, cohesion among all the different activities. The social tools for emergent and massively multiplayer aren't in-game (player managed clans, shared inventory of a clan / guild, chat rooms, craft ships and outposts from scratch etc).

Well, they failed miserably then because Elite is absolutely not a sandbox game. One cannot change their game environment nor can they control the story line. Objects are fixed and cannot be destroyed or created and brought into the world. FDev control the ACSII based text story line with the story arcs posted in Galnet that have no in-game connection to in game characters - one has to use their imagination as NPCs do not do anything related to or in support of the story. So many folks seem to misunderstand what a sandbox game is. Others have correctly posted (in other threads) that Elite is really just a group of minigames for players to play together in a shared world and shared database. But it's not a sandbox.

Yep a real sandbox game lets players create and destroy things. Look at Eve Online, the most complex sandbox space-sim where the free economy is player driven. Players literally build ships and structures from scratch. Players create corporations and give missions to each other. They control regions and so forth. Eve Online is very player driven.

Elite Dangerous is tightly controlled by Fdev. Player actions are very limited by the lead-developers. We cannot build castles in this 2 inch deep sandbox. That's a shame, because this game is full of potential.

 

[Lestenio]

Frontier are not a team of kids working out their parents bedroom. They have been developing games for a long time and have over 200 employees including designers and producers who are the "ideas man" as some of you put it.

Its unrealistic to think that the Devs can do everything in one go. It's not a lack of creativity in their part, it's a lack of patience on the communities.

 

[noodle]

Its unrealistic to think that the Devs can do everything in one go. It's not a lack of creativity in their part, it's a lack of patience on the communities.

Disagree. A lot of what they do is poorly thought through and implemented. So it's not a case of waiting for them to do it - it's a case of wanting them to do it better. Powerplay being a prime example of this.

 

[Lestenio]

Disagree. A lot of what they do is poorly thought through and implemented. So it's not a case of waiting for them to do it - it's a case of wanting them to do it better. Powerplay being a prime example of this.

Powerplay was over engineered for what people wanted. Most people would have been happy with simply being able to join a faction and have the faction name show up when scanned. But it doesn't lack design, someone had to spec out the functionality and detail how it works and how it will work with the BGS as the design continues. It's a larger feature that will continue to evolve and have better integration.

Not liking something (and I really don't like powerplay) is not the same as saying the game needs a designer.
I'd like more focus on finishing something before starting something new, but again that's not a design issue. Featuers tend to have a dependency on other features that haven't been developed yet. Which is why it appears disjointed sometimes.

 

[Lowievisser]

Proposal: Frontier made a game I dislike.

Conclusion: Ergo Frontier can't make a game.

Anyone else see the flaw in this argument?

ah the typical comment here.

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No, change the price tag by a factor of 1000, & you're actually talking about Star Citizen. By all means, if you loathe Elite: Dangerous so much, then please feel free to sample that game instead....assuming you can afford the price tag. For my part, though I definitely think the game can do with improvement (which it is regularly getting, btw) it has sucked up more of my spare time than any game since the Civilization franchise, & has proven to be fantastic value for money. Still, haters gonna hate.

i bought sc and life time expansion pass for 30 dollar lol. dunno where you get your facts from?

hell even 8 years of eve was cheaper as elite.

 

[Marasmusine]

Have you seen those review scores?

Yes I have. They are overwhelmingly positive. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/elite-dangerous

The YouTube videos?

The majority I've seen celebrate the game.

Reddit discussions?

...well that's the place to go to find negativity about _any_ game.

 

[JosiahD]

Firstly, I'm not drawing a distinction between a flight sim and a game. I am stating that a FLIGHT SIM is all that Elite is right now. That, and some technical demos of unfinished mechanics that might well be fleshed out into enjoyable interactions in the end. There is no real game here; more a proof of concept for combat, and another for trading; some poorly fleshed out smuggling mechanic that barely works. All connected - loosely - by a solid flight model.

Second, when I refer to creativity I am referring to something to do with all that flying. Something creative. Something that isn't a basic, text only holdover from 1984. Something this game has not yet done.

Thirdly...never said a word about "end game" anywhere. Not one. In fact what I am asking for is the antithesis of End Game as MMO Gamers define it. I despise Raids and all the other typical end game crap that turned me off from the MMO Genre years ago.

What I want is a living, breathing, dynamic universe. Like, you know, we were promised. Some finished mechanics would be a good start. Missions that work. Persistent stuff. Less RNG, more persistence and consequence. That's all.

Well, my interpretation of what constitutes a 'game' is clearly different from yours. Or at least my expectations of a game like Elite are. It's a LONG way past a proof of concept in my opinion.
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Umm, and you did indeed lament the absence of an endgame - towards the end of your 7th para. Where you lamented the absence of an 'end game' for any of the mechanics. If you'd used the word 'completed' or 'finished' it might have been a little less misleading in terms of the message you wished to convey. Which is why I then made the observation about iterative development - give them time to incorporate the mechanics for that 'living, breathing, dynamic universe' you're after. We all knew it would take time, and that things like persistence were in the roadmap.

 

[Blackcompany]

Horizons is a tech demo for 50 bucks.

Well, my interpretation of what constitutes a 'game' is clearly different from yours. Or at least my expectations of a game like Elite are. It's a LONG way past a proof of concept in my opinion.
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Umm, and you did indeed lament the absence of an endgame - towards the end of your 7th para. Where you lamented the absence of an 'end game' for any of the mechanics. If you'd used the word 'completed' or 'finished' it might have been a little less misleading in terms of the message you wished to convey. Which is why I then made the observation about iterative development - give them time to incorporate the mechanics for that 'living, breathing, dynamic universe' you're after. We all knew it would take time, and that things like persistence were in the roadmap.

I. Never. Mentioned. End. Game.

That you cannot discern the difference between wanting finished, fleshed out mechanics and wanting "end game" content despite having it explained to you - twice - is not my problem, its yours so I will let you to it.

What I want is for Frontier to recognize that Engineers have done what they can for Elite. The time has come now to take their work and combine it with a creative vision to turn the cold, lifeless Mathematica of this Simulator/tech demo into a fun, engaging game.

By all means, guide the changeover. Keep sturdy hands on the fiscal reins. Braben has more than proven himself capable of turning his highly technical vision into a reality. Now, do the same for another's creative vision.

That is literally all I wanted to express with this thread. A congratulations on realizing a brilliant Simulator, and a hope that now, someone can turn it into a game.

 

[Jimus]

What Elite needs sadly we will never get.

What it needs, what would transform it.. Ian Bell, sadly that will never happen which is a HUGE shame as together they can make utter magic happen.

This comes up from time to time. I don't see what Ian could bring to the table at this point. There isn't a lot of info out there, but as far as I can tell he only worked on 2 games. The original Elite, and a beat em up called Free Fall. Both of these were published on the BBC back in the 80's. I know he also had some input in to Frontier as an adviser.

I'm not slagging him off, he was co-creator of one of my favorite games after all, but he hasn't produced a game since 1984. Why do you think he could improve on what we have now in ED?

 

[Iskariot]

Elite Needs Game Designers

Totally disagree, not because the game does not need more life and more soul, because that is true, but because you suggest that FD would not be capable of that.

You simply forget that the devs need to follow a certain design path.
You can only fill in the house with furniture and dress it up when the foundation has been build and the walls can hold themselves upright.

FD has already announced some steps for this season to add soul and this could not have been done earlier.

This is a 10 year project you know!!!!