Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers
- Thread starter Blackcompany
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Yes...YES IT DOES!
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=232484
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=232484
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It's only odd when looked at from the perspective of traditional MMOs. FDev very intentionally avoided following the existing design of MMOs, and instead designed ED around David Braben's vision of a multiplayer "space simulation". Let me phrase this another way: FDev were not chasing MMO players, they were chasing "space sim" players who wanted a multiplayer component. So it is unsurprising that ED doesn't have (for example) global chatrooms.They have to make it work somehow. A clan or guild cannot function properly without a chatroom for all members. Eve Online, WoW, every major MMO has this feature.
It's odd that this MMO only has missions for solo-players, where's the multi-player missions?
David Braben's vision has had far-reaching consequences on the design of ED. Not only has it affected the gameplay, but it led them to a radical business model, client/server networking model & shared universe state choice (for a first-person reaction-based game). Even if FDev change their minds, and decide they suddenly DO want to copy MMO features, it is almost impossible for them to do so because of their chosen business model & their chosen client/server model & their shared universe state. And changing all of that is so difficult & expensive that you might as well assume it is impossible.
(Note that David Braben has envisioned a "multiplayer Elite" since 1993, if not 1984. i.e. Well before MMOs were popular.)
I wouldn't give one off-the-cuff comment too much weight... But I did say that "FDev may devise a solution eventually, but it probably won't work like it does in other MMO/sand-box games." For better or worse, FDev continue to ignore player suggestions, and instead devise their own novel solutions to what they perceive as the real problems underlying player dissatisfaction. (For the worse in the case of Power Player... and possibly Multi-Crew.)
I suspect that FDev don't pay too much attention to forum polls, whatever we might wish.
You are making the mistake of thinking that players will get what they want MERELY because a lot of them want it. It's not nearly that simple. FDev are limited by their past choices (e.g. business model, client/server network model, shared universe state), as well as their desire to keep all their players happy (rather than just one section of it, be it PvP players, or clan/guild players, or solo players, or whatever).
Sorry, but I am virtually certain that won't happen:
The networking model was FDev's number 2 priority in getting right for ED (number 1 was the combat model), so they put huge resources into getting it right... and some years later it still isn't working perfectly. Just from a technical perspective they will be extremely reluctant to go changing it, because they had so much trouble getting it 'almost' working right. Never mind the huge development cost, for which they don't have the money to spare.
AND that's not even the biggest reason it won't change! Their business model (one season pass per year) would not be viable if they scrapped P2P & got their (cloud) servers to take most of the strain. Simply put the server costs would rocket, and they'd run out of cash. They would only consider changing their business model if the only alternative was going bust, by which time it might be too late anyway.
There might be an element of truth in your "old-school thinking", and it may well be true that "Lots of players yearn for a real deep sandbox", etc... But all that is irrelevant! ED is built upon a networking model, business model, a shared universe state & BackGround Sim which means it is UNAVOIDABLE that "ED is designed so that individual players can interact (with others they can see), but their persistent effects on the world are somewhat indirect".
If FDev were to change all that, they would basically need to give-up on ED & start from scratch. Which isn't going to happen any time soon.
I'm afraid that what you want would require an entirely different game than ED. It's simply never going to be what you want.
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Blackcompany
Banned
Braben wanted a multiplayer Elite for years, yet wanted a game where the effect of any single Commander on the Universe is minuscule at best. He wanted multiple players to feel the loneliness of empty space while occasionally brushing up against one another in his huge universe. In his logical, engineer's mind players would simply accept this and go with it because that was the plan and the numbers worked.
Not being a game designer - or apparently particularly creatively minded at all (this is NOT an insult) - he completely failed to account for player ingenuity.
Get groups of players in the same sandbox, and many want to band together and make their presence felt. This is the entire basis of EVE Online and other sandbox games preceding it. Many players simply will NOT accept a minuscule influence or not having their presence felt. We see this daily in forum posts about the BGS and Power Play (which, for some inexplicable reason, remain completely separate and oft opposing mechanics because again, Elite does not apparently have game designers only engineers trying and mostly failing to make a game) and we will continue to see it. Players want their actions to matter, and this should have been something Frontier anticipated.
And it would have been anticipated. By a game designer. By someone with experience in designing fun, compelling games for players to enjoy as opposed to adding more progress bars to grind.
Elite desperately needs someone to helm the actual game side of development. Braben and company have done a fantastic job with the flight mechanics, the combat, all that stuff. But it needs a game to attach itself to and right now - more than a year after release, mind you - it still mostly lacks one and what it does have, still doesn't even work.
Not being a game designer - or apparently particularly creatively minded at all (this is NOT an insult) - he completely failed to account for player ingenuity.
Get groups of players in the same sandbox, and many want to band together and make their presence felt. This is the entire basis of EVE Online and other sandbox games preceding it. Many players simply will NOT accept a minuscule influence or not having their presence felt. We see this daily in forum posts about the BGS and Power Play (which, for some inexplicable reason, remain completely separate and oft opposing mechanics because again, Elite does not apparently have game designers only engineers trying and mostly failing to make a game) and we will continue to see it. Players want their actions to matter, and this should have been something Frontier anticipated.
And it would have been anticipated. By a game designer. By someone with experience in designing fun, compelling games for players to enjoy as opposed to adding more progress bars to grind.
Elite desperately needs someone to helm the actual game side of development. Braben and company have done a fantastic job with the flight mechanics, the combat, all that stuff. But it needs a game to attach itself to and right now - more than a year after release, mind you - it still mostly lacks one and what it does have, still doesn't even work.
Yes, for the most part, the flying is the best part of the game. I actually enjoy just flying up the stations and landing.
You are right again. But I don't think the game will ever be more than it is now. Walk around ships? Why, so I can spend more time doing things instead of gaming? Walk around stations... I guess that will be so I can wander down to the bar and get into fights, drunk, play poker... Maybe I can sit in a corner and play solitaire!
Look, I'm sorry if this offends you, I don't think this game will ever be more than a really good flight simulator with some sort of loose missions half tacked on. I am not going to buy next seasons edition if they can't make a more compelling game than this. The recent look into the future from the devs promises much, but if it is implemented as poorly as the game is now I have much better places to spend my money and my time.They need to step up their game and explain what they are going to do to fix the issues and lack of consistency in this game as it is now.
But they won't. They'll keep on moving forward with additional features that will only be half implemented place holders that they have some grand vision of that will get lost in the next round of additional features that
will only be half implemented place holders that they have some grand vision of that will get lost in the next round of additional features that will only be half implemented place holders that they have some grand vision of that will get lost in the next round of additional features that will only be half implemented place holders that they have some grand vision of that will get lost in the next round of additional features that will only be half implemented place holders that they have some grand vision of that will get lost in the next round of additional features that...
You get the picture... Unfortunately this isn't the only game that does this. And I'm tired of paying for games that come out half developed and rarely fixed.
Blackcompany
Banned
I share these sentiments. I fell into this same trap with Firefall, and with Warframe. And with...name it, honestly; gaming today is full of promises and...not much else. Digitial Distribution allowed many people who were out of the gaming industry to make a return as independent developers...only to show us WHY they were out of the gaming industry to begin with.
I wont be buy next season until the content in it is finished, polished and working as promised. If that means I skip it until the end fine. If it means I NEVER buy it...I am good with that, too. Rather that than continue to support empty promises.
I genuinely like the FD guys, I know they work hard and they love what they're doing. I do think they've zigged when they should have zagged too often, and we see it not only in game design decisions but also in how they communicate. Look at the confusion over the Seasons model, and then the change on Steam versions, but even prior to that there were tons of communication problems on things like Ships (when do we get free Viper, etc), even going back to the various Beta tiers and packages, the black box that is the BGS, offline mode, and more. There is some weird thing going on where they aren't explaining themselves very well, or some line of thinking is being agreed in the office but it's not translating to the customers. Or strange decisions like splitting up planetary landings between multiple Seasons, thus ensuring that people will have to buy multiple DLC just to be able to have the complete landings experience. I don't know how else to explain it other than I agree with the OP that a market savvy, experienced game director or producer is needed to tie all of these things up into one cohesive vision, that can translate what David wants to do with the executive direction of the game into a real plan to execute across all aspects of the operation.
I am truly pulling for these guys ... the game has been a ton of fun, I guess the frustrating part is that it could have been so much more. I suppose that kind of thing happens more commonly with game development than we think.
I am truly pulling for these guys ... the game has been a ton of fun, I guess the frustrating part is that it could have been so much more. I suppose that kind of thing happens more commonly with game development than we think.
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I'm curious about this so I have a few questions.
1. Why would it cause server load?
2. How would you bot-farm in Elite? Trading, mining? I assume combat and exploration would be out.
3. Is it even possible to unbalance the BGS in it's current state? What does unbalance even mean to the current BGS?
CMDR CTCParadox
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be some kind of a joke? If not, you are still so far down the wrong track here it's not funny.....
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Clearly you simplistically think that just because this game being designed deliberately....yes, deliberately....to NOT be Eve means that Frontier aren't creative. The truth is the exact opposite, but I don't expect you to believe it. Do they make mistakes? Of course they do, like everyone else. Avoiding the Eve model isn't one of them.
The OPs post is being pretty insulting to the creative team behind Elite.
I've met some of the content artists, modellers and developers from Frontier and they are passionate, dedicated and creative, not "engineers" with no comprehension of what makes a game. I say on their behalf, don't be so rude and ignorant.
I've met some of the content artists, modellers and developers from Frontier and they are passionate, dedicated and creative, not "engineers" with no comprehension of what makes a game. I say on their behalf, don't be so rude and ignorant.
No one is questioning modellers or developers.
But your so called "content artists" did a pretty lousy job so far - even if every mission in game would work flawlessly (which they dont and that most certainly contributes a lot to the bad vibe a lot ppl are getting, too) they are for the most part incredible boring, repetitive and grindy.
If that's "insulting"... well... I am sorry.
No. Wait. I am not.
I want to have more fun and "depth" in the game; it's not that they are doing me a favor or something that I have to be grateful for - we pay for all that. It's their job. Yes, I deserve to have more fun in my game.
Do better. Maybe then there would be no more "insults".
I think a lot of people are exasperated with the game to some extent do to the lack of cleaning up the loose ends before moving on to new content.
That is a matter of opinion. My opinion is the opposite of yours. If I thought it was lousy, I wouldn't have played the game for over a 1000 hours. While I agree that improvements can be made like all games that have been released, I still find the game extremely enjoyable without any grind or boredom. Grind all depends on your playstyle. And when it comes to deserving the game you want, maybe do some research before committing to buy something. You deserve what you get, there is plenty of information out there that tells you the state of the game.
Imagine F1 2016 or Forza with 10 different cars max and 1000 race tracks most of which look exactly the same
Imagine GTA V with the same 3 repeatable missions over and over, 10 cars and nothing else to do
2x (poor?) Examples of what would kill replayabilty of a good base game but Elite is just that. A great framework for a triple A title with very little in the middle to keep "most" people playing. There is honestly no incentive to keep playing, no progression to enjoy other than a few different ships that increase in size and power. This for me down to the fact the whole game is essentially a copy & Paste of very few core components to make the game world seem vast. Yes vast but utterly boring after an hour.
This can change though and this years updates are the final make or break for ED in my opinion. I for one hope 2016 will be a good year because I do like the core game it just needs more juice, much more.
i mostly agree. i wouldn't say the game design is 'bad', it's just a bit naive and childish if you compare it to the wonderful ship and flight simulation and the gorgeous ambience. i wouldn't dare to blame this squarely on the designers, though, without knowing the exact requirements and constraints they had to work with in the first place. i believe these things like the non-existant open/solo divide, the no_one_is_in_control paradigm and the obsession with the prng are largely mr braben's vision, and they are pretty much at the core of what i consider to be poor game design.
technically it looks like a brilliant and very capable team but just seems to lack a bit of professionalism (regarding solid engineering practices and quality of delivery), but then again i'm not a game developer (but still a developer) and different criteria may be common in this sector. it also seems pretty obvious to me that much of the sloppyness can be attributable to pressure, haste and bad middle-management in general.
don't mind the fanatics. you definitely have a point, and it's a point obviously made from a position of love for the game. but that's how it is and unlikely to change.
Sorry but those examples don't really compare. In fact GTA missions are very similar, it's just presentation of the missions that is different. Admittedly better in GTA, but missions aren't the only activity you can do in Elite. There are lots of other things to do, such as trade, explore, bounty hunt, and pirate.
What do you mean by progression. I certainly don't want levels or anything like that in this game. I want experiences which I have had a lot of.
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The missions in GTAV have more variety with characters that are motion captured and voice-acting.
To make a long story short: Frontier has to add richness, fill the galaxy and give players tools to socialize, craft, manage stuff by themselves.
Billions of procedural generated planets sounds good. Then you go to a planetary base, notice there's no NPC life other than a few ships docking. There's no NPC ship combat near the surface. Community Goals are dull grind-fests created by Fdev, not by the background-sim or players. Players are cut-off from each other, because there's no global chat or any tools for deep communication. Four players per wing isn't much for an MMO.
ED generally feels lifeless. Commanders spend their days in semi-solitude.
Let players build bases, make chat-rooms, craft ships with materials that are mined by players, claim territory and so on.
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That's what you want. I don't want to do crafting myself, I don't want to manage stations or corporations. Depth means a lot of different things to different people. I hope the new mission and BGS update coming in 2.1 helps with some of the depth and presentation, but voice acting and motion capture doesn't give missions more depth.
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I think he was just giving examples of how missions in GTAV engage the player more than the sterile ones of ED. I don't think that he meant those particular aspects should be added to ED. But that something should be done as, at present, the whole mission system is unengaging, repetitive and bland. In my ever so humble opinion, of course.
If they at least worked that would be a great improvement.
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