Elite PVP is Terrible because the PVP Playerbase is Terrible

[Shar]

Get a grip. "Kids" that have spent 10's of hours engineering their ships to perfection and in doing so likely experiencing much more of what the game has to offer than the majority of players who basically want Open turned into the space equivalent of Bumper-Bowling. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of forum hysteria or pseudo-psycho analysis from those who have probably never even engaged in proper PvP or left the safety and "seriousness" of Mobius

Well I don't know what percentage of the player base are kids - say 8-12 year olds but considering the overwhelming majority of the crying and dummy spitting comes from open there is a good chance most of them are there. not to mention the griefers and gankers then there is the wanna be darth vader dominators and the joystick hero's no doubt open is the most dysfuctional of all the modes and the end result of that dysfunction speaks for itself. It's the minority mode is that enough grip for you.

It can be saved but it will take a stong crime and punishment system and i fear that may be beyond frontiers abilities and/or backbone.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

It can be saved but it will take a stong crime and punishment system and i fear that may be beyond frontiers abilities and/or backbone.

I would say both.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I would say both.

Even so, it'd also require a reason to PvP beyond just being bored. Other games at least have faction vs faction combat to bring some semblance of purpose and backstory for doing so. As yet, the Federation and Empire are still more interested in hugging each other than clubbing each other.

At least in SWG we had a purpose. Death to the rebel scum and die Imperial bootlicker were pretty common insults hurled back and forth as both sides fought each other daily... for YEARS. In ED, it's more like National Lampoon's Vacation.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Even so, it'd also require a reason to PvP beyond just being bored. Other games at least have faction vs faction combat to bring some semblance of purpose and backstory for doing so. As yet, the Federation and Empire are still more interested in hugging each other than clubbing each other.

At least in SWG we had a purpose. Death to the rebel scum and die Imperial bootlicker were pretty common insults hurled back and forth as both sides fought each other daily... for YEARS. In ED, it's more like National Lampoon's Vacation.

http://www.rellimzone.com/images/movies/national-lampoons-vacation-1983-movie-08.png

Sadly, National Lampoon was far better...

 

[Sasquatch_Punter]

That's what happens when you open up shortcuts to the top-tier ships and remove any incentive to face higher-level/skilled pilots.

You wind up with a bunch of bad players hunting lower tier ships/players in top tier ships. It's not the players' faults, either; it's a critical failure of the game's design.

 

[Lestradae]

It's not the players' faults, either; it's a critical failure of the game's design.

That sums it up pretty much.

 

[Captain Willard]

That's what happens when you open up shortcuts to the top-tier ships and remove any incentive to face higher-level/skilled pilots.

You wind up with a bunch of bad players hunting lower tier ships/players in top tier ships. It's not the players' faults, either; it's a critical failure of the game's design.

Open=open season, it happened as soon as they allowed human pirates and no structured pvp. Sorry to dispute you but it is the players fault. The majority of players from private and solo don't jump into open to slaughter inferior ships. Enjoy the failure of open, they brought it on themselves.

 

[Sasquatch_Punter]

Sorry to dispute you but it is the players fault. The majority of players from private and solo don't jump into open to slaughter inferior ships.

I'm sorry, but patterns of behaviour are a function of design. An open, freeform sandbox FPS that allows players to camp spawn points predictably creates that outcome through designer neglect.

No amount of finger pointing in the community will fix the game unless it leads Frontier to fix those flaws.

 

[Captain Willard]

I'm sorry, but patterns of behaviour are a function of design. An open, freeform sandbox FPS that allows players to camp spawn points predictably creates that outcome through designer neglect.

No amount of finger pointing in the community will fix the game unless it leads Frontier to fix those flaws.

Well keep on killing inferior players and blame the game maker.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Well keep on killing inferior players and blame the game maker.

Im all for dangerous gameplay for all involved but in all honestly the game as it stands offer no danger to an aggressor attacking a weaker target.

Sure, if both players are in an Anarchy system or the target is wanted or part of a PP faction the weaker party has themselves to blame.

BUT, and here is the kicker, without a proper crime and punishment system there is no danger and actually no good GAMEPLAY for both parties.

Having mass murderers doing forays into civilized systems on the pain of death from actual DANGEROUS police forces and fleet responses while being safe in anarchy systems could make some really good gameplay around such systems.

- Black markets in anarchy with actual good prices
- Traders who WANT to risk smuggling goods into Anarchy systems
- Wanted smugglers who WANT to smuggle drugs into civilized space
- Being able to get a reputation with criminal factions due to a wanted reputation
- A wanted status that actually never dissappear and acts as a badge of honor and perks among criminals.

 

[Mephane]

If people can't comprehend and cope with a station speed limit, they have no right to demand stronger punishment to crime.

I guess you are alluding to the various "someone rammed themselves to death against me while I was speeding" posts - intentionally abusing this is still griefing in my view, just like intentionally flying into another player's weapon fire in order to get them wanted is. Sure, the other player might have avoid the situation if they had behaved differently, but in either case did they not intend any harm to another player and the crime system was abused to get them wanted or even killed.

That said, even if you are not speeding, there have been abuses of various methods, from pushing them over the speed limit with another ship to using force shell cannons to knock them forward and over the limit, so there are cases where people adhere to the speed limit and still get griefed in this manner.

 

[Alpha November]

I guess you are alluding to the various "someone rammed themselves to death against me while I was speeding" posts - intentionally abusing this is still griefing in my view, just like intentionally flying into another player's weapon fire in order to get them wanted is. Sure, the other player might have avoid the situation if they had behaved differently, but in either case did they not intend any harm to another player and the crime system was abused to get them wanted or even killed.

That said, even if you are not speeding, there have been abuses of various methods, from pushing them over the speed limit with another ship to using force shell cannons to knock them forward and over the limit, so there are cases where people adhere to the speed limit and still get griefed in this manner.

The speed limit is a rubbish idea anyway; it was so obviously likely that it would be abused that you wonder if the idea was implemented just to generate the controversy that it has. Personally I think that ramming in station-space should never cause the death of the ship(s) involved in the incident in which case the station would not open fire. Opening fire on another ship in station space would attract retaliation like it does now. That would eliminate the station ram-grief.

 

[NeilF]

Open=open season, it happened as soon as they allowed human pirates and no structured pvp. Sorry to dispute you but it is the players fault. The majority of players from private and solo don't jump into open to slaughter inferior ships. Enjoy the failure of open, they brought it on themselves.

And there is a huge lump of the problem! "No structered PvP". We're two year into the game, and yet there's no interesting/meaningful ways to engage in PvP (or PvE) scenarios/mechanics. Powerplay would be the obvious place for this... But alas no.

If this was in place, the illegal destruction of a Pilots Federation member could be heavily penalised.

ie: If you want to take part in PvP, then use a supported (legal) mechanic, don't just interdict random CMDRs and blow them up for your toxic lolz.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

On another note.

Could someone tell me what OPEN gives me in term of BETTER GAMEPLAY?

Because the only thing that open offer me right now over solo is more rebuy screens due to also having CMDR's interdict me for no apparent reason unlike the NPC's who tends to have SOME reason linked to missions I do.

And if all open would give me is:

- A requirement to wing up with unknown people just to feel safer when moving around
- A requirement to have combat fitting just to survive even if combat is something im not even interested in
- More interdictions from CMDR's and not just NPC's
- More rebuy screens due to point 3

If open play could have better crime and punishment, more dangerous anarchy systems AND greater improved functionality and rewards from black markets and smuggling THEN I might have a reason for playing in open.

but nothing right now really makes open sound interesting.

 

[DarkWalker]

I'm sorry, but patterns of behaviour are a function of design. An open, freeform sandbox FPS that allows players to camp spawn points predictably creates that outcome through designer neglect.

No amount of finger pointing in the community will fix the game unless it leads Frontier to fix those flaws.

I would say it's both.

Frontier made a game thinking of a different player base, a more... honorable one, that would only pursue PvP when it actually improved the experience for both them and their targets. Also a more accepting one when it comes to PvP, where those attacked would accept it as just a fun and enjoyable part of the game (and, thus, without players like me, who will never see an unannounced player attack as enjoyable or even acceptable).

At the same time, players that want to maximize their PvP interaction never stopped to think about how they were pushing their targets away from Open, and into modes where PvP shouldn't (or even can't) happen. They are gleefully removing from the game they play the kind of interaction they want.

My guess is that Frontier has absolutely no idea how to deal with it. I believe they want to steer the game into their original vision for the Open mode — that PvP is always meaningful, that it's exceptionally rare for those that don't want to engage in it, that Open is the mode the vast majority of players will be playing in except for a small minority that wants less social interaction going for Solo or Private Groups — but can see no way, at all, of moving towards that, and are wary to implement anything that might make it harder to achieve that in the future.

 

[Sasquatch_Punter]

snip

IMO there are a TON of things they could do to bring PvP more in line with their original vision, but their glacial progress towards implementing them just proves it's not a big priority.

I don't agree that Frontier can be defended for making assumptions about their playerbase. MMOs of any stripe will always have seal clubbers. That's just a given, so it's naive to assume you can just rely on the honour system when you don't have a real crime/punishment system or any meaningful PvP content to distract from the solo grind.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

I'm sorry, but patterns of behaviour are a function of design. An open, freeform sandbox FPS that allows players to camp spawn points predictably creates that outcome through designer neglect.

No amount of finger pointing in the community will fix the game unless it leads Frontier to fix those flaws.

Exactly. Developers must design games with the understanding that if something can be done, it will be done. Failure to anticipate this and build mechanics that curb the impact of gameplay that is not in the spirit of the game is a failure of design.

 

[Devari]

For anyone who might still be trying to claim that my experiences aren't "representative" of Elite PVP encounters, here's a recent thread started by another player who had a very similar experience where a CMDR in a Corvette kept interdicting the player in his Python and called him a "griefer" when he simply jumped away each time.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/312426-Just-had-a-Dust-Up-with-another-Cmdr

 

[thirstyfish]

For anyone who might still be trying to claim that my experiences aren't "representative" of Elite PVP encounters, here's a recent thread started by another player who had a very similar experience where a CMDR in a Corvette kept interdicting the player in his Python and called him a "griefer" when he simply jumped away each time.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/312426-Just-had-a-Dust-Up-with-another-Cmdr

I just read that post myself. Sounds about right for how Open is these days.

 

[thorn-]

Was it Zarek Null? It was Zarek Null.

I think you're confusing "ganking" with "griefing". Not all ganking is griefing and not all griefing is ganking. AA ganked Zarek Null, for example.

And he didn't combat log?

That's a first...