Elite, The "Grind" and External Perspective

[Chrysophylax]

What you are explaining isn't grind. Rather scarcity and progression. Both very important for different reasons. When it comes to exploring, because places take so long to reach, it creates a sense of accomplishment. Something explorers are after. You don't hike to the top of a mountain because its easy. Don't jump hundreds of times. Visit the systems you jump to and explore them. If that doesn't sound appealing then exploring isn't the activity for you. No amount of jump range increases is going to change that. All it will do is devalue places people like to visit.

The work something takes to achieve can be part of what makes the achievement rewarding. I don't think anyone fundamentally disagrees with that, I certainly don't. The thing is, the work can be engaging. The games I consider well-designed make the work itself entertaining. Getting someplace in Elite is something I don't consider entertaining, fun on its own or even something that requires any skill, so I call 5kly for Palin a grind. It's not really about how long it takes.

In WoW for instance, the progression element is engaging and fun at all levels (and to be fair to Elite here, they have 13 years of experience in this). It's not just the fact that you're busy all the time (unlike scoop 'n' jump, point 'n' wait), it's that what keeps you busy is entertaining and engaging.

The optimal way to progress in any game, IMO, should also be one of the must fun ways to progress.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Well, that's not a negative point per se. Lots of games have features locked behind grind walls. Look at Wow, ffxiv, gw2 and basically every mmo, you have to repeat simple tasks over and over again (Quests most likely) in order to unlock raids, high lvl dungeons etc.

Problem is those game have a huge variety of tasks you can switch from whenever you like, areas are very different both in challenges, visuals, art and mechanics so that you never really feel like you're grinding more than you'd like unless you really are focused on a single loot.

Elite can't afford a grindwall like that, not even close, because it doesn't have nearly enough variety. Every system feels the same no matter the status it's in, every planet feels the same, every target ship looks the same from afar, every station feels the same. And every activity this game offers is bound to all those things.

I can accept a pirate mission or a mining X tons of palladium mission, but all of those will require to experience jump, jump, jump, scoop, jump, supercruise, enter instance, do what I have to do, exit instance, jump, jump, jump, scoop, supercruise, dock and complete mission. Passengers? Same. Trading? Same.

It all relies on a system which is so barebones, so time consuming *and at the same time* almost completely devoid of challenges/interaction that it gets extremely boring extremely fast to many people.

I think your point about variety is key. I used to play WoW. Arguably, the grindy-iest thing I did in that game was running Stratholme over and over again to get the very rare Death Charger's Reins mount from the final boss. But it was fun, because it was a challenge to run that instance as a solo level 80 character. I could also stop at anytime and find dozens of other things to do to have fun. WoW has a lot of grind if you go looking for it, but there's plenty of a variety of things to do to keep the game feeling fresh.

I think people get sick of the Elite grind for larger ships, because ship progression is one of the most immediately obvious and tangible things to progress towards in the game. People look at one of the Big 3 and think "oh hey, that ship is larger and nicer look than mine, I want it!", and then get frustrated when they see how long it takes to get. My anaconda is one of the least flown ships in my fleet. I only use it for long distance trading. I hate it as an explorer because it has such a slow supercruise turning speed, and I don't like it as a combat ship because of how expensive it is to outfit. So I end up having one of the end game ships and not much reason to fly it because I can do certain activities more efficiently with a smaller ship. I would've expected an end game ship to be more useful.

 

[Ruskodisco]

200 hours for most people to get to the anaconda. Another 150 for the next level.
He makes no point for or against Elite as the problem that most people have is that the Grind in elite dangerous is just an excuse to not put more content in the game.

 

[StiTch]

It's where I found WoW seems to get things right.

Same with EverQuest. You know what the winning factor is? They're multiplayer games.

Actual MMORPGs have a much easier time of "grinds", because having different people engage in x activity each time lets an otherwise repetitive task be dynamic. As ED is effectively treated as a solo game for the most part, aspects like engineering are just an unmitigated boredom trip.

 

[Siranui]

Same with EverQuest. You know what the winning factor is? They're multiplayer games.

Actual MMORPGs have a much easier time of "grinds", because having different people engage in x activity each time lets an otherwise repetitive task be dynamic. As ED is effectively treated as a solo game for the most part, aspects like engineering are just an unmitigated boredom trip.

What...wait: Everquest is a good example of *not a grindy game*??!!

EQ was grindy as all heck. May I remind people of hell levels in Sol B?!

 

[StiTch]

What...wait: Everquest is a good example of *not a grindy game*??!!

EQ was grindy as all heck. May I remind people of hell levels in Sol B?!

Yeah, but I enjoyed the grind. That's the point. Hell, I still managed to keep myself thoroughly entertained as a cleric after playing a shadowknight through - and if you can grind an ikky SK to max level with the XP penalty they had, you can endure just about anything

I'd rather go through every hell level in turn than spend a day engineering in ED. There was something fun about needing a group to engage the content and being able to go there with either a group of oldies or find some randomers and end up with bizarre groups that somehow work (or don't).