Engineer weapon crafting needs to be rethought (if what we suspect is true)

[Marc_Hicks]

It *could* have been changed, but if you read between the lines and look at the reaction of them to the chat it's pretty clear it hasn't been significantly altered.

Ah yes, reading between the lines.....because that has *never* been proven to ever be wrong.....& yes you *are* a min-maxer and, having dealt with them in Roleplaying games on many different occasions, I do bandy it about in a negative context.

<Personally directed comments removed>

 

[cluelessforumuser65578]

You as a player can now pick 1 stat and reroll it (for a fee)

thats exactly what was shown in the stream, pick a mod that improves a stat, in the case of the laser it was range. the minimum improvement seamed to be dependent on the mod level, in that case at lvl 2 it was 100% guaranteed to be no less than 600m with a chance it could be as high as 1200. im drooling over how high it could be at lvl 5 + any secondary effects and the special

 

[Iskariot]

I will simply wait and see how the crafting works out in the game.
My first reaction to what I have seen so far is positive.
I like the constrained randomness of the process.

 

[Ian Phillips]

Well this is going well.

Going to cull the personal argument posts.

When this thread re-opens, if it again descends to name calling and off topic personal arguments it will be permanently closed.

 

[Ian Phillips]

There we go. Much better

Remember to make your points about the content of the post and the issues being raised rather than to make comments about a posters unsavory habits and personal hygene. Thank You.

 

[dynamicbob]

im quite happy with the way Fdev are making this happen, a degree of success - failure and repeatedness to it is a good idea

 

[Marc_Hicks]

im quite happy with the way Fdev are making this happen, a degree of success - failure and repeatedness to it is a good idea

Plus, they've made it abundantly clear that they are looking at ways by which commanders can further reduce the level of "randomness" in future updates-like the quality of the materials. Again, it seems some people choose to ignore the fact that E: D is going through a process of Iterative Development.

 

[sp0q]

I think the main argument behind the decision of making the modules randomised to an extent was it makes the whole thing easier to balance. Otherwise we would have the new meta established by the end of the beta - 5 engineers worth visiting and that's it. I'm not too happy about it being random, I'd rather know what I am working towards but if this update proves to help integrate different in-game mechanics I'll be happy enough.
Make it more worthwhile to do the missions, make it more worthwhile to land on the planets and to explore POIs in the SRV - that's what I'm looking forward to. If the Engineers end up being the glue that holds all of that together, I'm fine with it.

 

[Gedemon]

Especially since we still only have 2 fire triggers. Lasers on 1 and heavy weapons on 2 means the heal laser gets fired along with the normal lasers.

That's a very good point, it's already difficult enough to switch between configurations with scanners and multiple weapons...

 

[M4rt1n]

From what we saw yesterday in the stream, the primary effects, and the secondary effects randomization is cool in my opinion. What concerns me is the randomness of the special effect. Of course we need to see how it actually works, but from what Sandro and Mark said, as this is a somewhat "controlled randomisation" I can totally see from the video shown regardind the first two "rolls". Hey Mr. Dweller, can you upgrade my lazors to overcharged variant? Yea, gimme the loot, I will do it, see, damage will increase, but on a downside it will increase power draw and heat and jitter... etc.
All these variables will be random in a way that is somewhat predictable, so you will not end up with an overcharged laser which is doing less damage, but is drawing less power and generates less heat etc. Thats totally cool. Sometimes the modification will be a bit better than other same type modifications, but I can accept that and it seems ok.
BUT what seems out of place from this "controlled randomisation" is that you have no way (at least it seems like from what we were shown) to "choose" a special effect. Lets say I want to upgrade my multicannons to incendiary rounds upgrade. It seems so far that the only option for that is to "keep rolling the dice" until I have the desired effect. Which is a bad desing choice in my opinion, and will create frustrating moments to people, not just the min/maxers.

 

[Captain Hooch]

Based upon what I've seen I hate this system. It doesn't even show you what mods you can get from the engineers. I'm sorry but if EVERYTHING will be random then I want to at least know what special effects I'm going to get and they shouldn't make those RNG. The whole reason ANYONE will use the Engineers will be to get a special effect, if its a crapshoot then its a horrible mechanic. We already gotta grind for the credits and materials only to have a CHANCE we will get a special and then ANOTHER chance it will even be the one we want. No thanks, this looks like rubbish.

 

[anikaiful]

BUT what seems out of place from this "controlled randomisation" is that you have no way (at least it seems like from what we were shown) to "choose" a special effect. Lets say I want to upgrade my multicannons to incendiary rounds upgrade. It seems so far that the only option for that is to "keep rolling the dice" until I have the desired effect. Which is a bad desing choice in my opinion, and will create frustrating moments to people, not just the min/maxers.

I've not watched the stream yet, but to be able to choose the 'special effect' desired would be grand. "I want this-and-this to do that-and-that" ... "OK! But, turns out that you got a teapot instead..." - isn't really cutting it. If I want a flamethrower, I'm not satisfied with a calculator instead.

 

[MyHammer]

one can either like or dislike the RNG system, I personally am in a neutral position about it, but what really is a bad idea is to put in an arcade style "wheel of fortune" animation when it comes to the special mod. please do something more scifi-scientific looking.

 

[M4rt1n]

I've not watched the stream yet, but to be able to choose the 'special effect' desired would be grand. "I want this-and-this to do that-and-that" ... "OK! But, turns out that you got a teapot instead..." - isn't really cutting it.

Haha, yes! Exactly.
On a sidenote: people WILL get the special effect they want. It will just be a lot of grind to get there. It would be much better to include the special effect as a standalone mod too.
Of course, first we will see how it actually works in the beta, all this stuff is just my prelimenary opinion based on what we seen yesterday.

 

[sp0q]

one can either like or dislike the RNG system, I personally am in a neutral position about it, but what really is a bad idea is to put in an arcade style "wheel of fortune" animation when it comes to the special mod. please do something more scifi-scientific looking.

Oh man, now I won't be able to unsee it : /

 

[Apos]

Going to lend some support to the OP.

To all those that think each and every "stat" being random is a good thing then allow me to draw your attention to Diablo 3 - it had the same idea.

Spoiler

Most items that dropped could have 6 primary stats from a very large pool and 2 secondary stats (again from a large pool). The chances of getting something that was actually useful was very, very low.

For example - some item slots were designated combat slots and best used with a particular set of stats as they could roll no where else. (Crit chance / Crit damage / attack speed on rings, amulets, gloves) If the RNG gods did not favour you the item irrespective of other attributes was garbage. On top of that your character had a primary stat (str / dex / int) and if the item had its primary stat as something else (so you're a barbarian and the RNG gods gave you in effect a wizard item) again it was garbage.

To give you an idea of the numbers:

• To get a perfect item (Trifactor stats & 2 other useful ones) you would craft it once every 142,500 attempts.
• To get an item close to perfect (Trifactor stats & Armour) you would craft it once every 210 attempts.
• To get an item reasonable (just Trifactor) you would need to craft 110 items.

You see - Blizzard thought they were being smart but instead it just frustrated players immensely - the looting system in D3 was rubbish and you had to be very, very lucky to get something good otherwise 99.9% of all drops/crafts were garbage.

Blizzard took note and introduced SmartLoot 2.0 ... that meant most of the drops were at least designed for your character. Play as a barbarian and on the whole barbarian items dropped (taking care of 1 stat to be the correct type) That means more of the loot was appropriate but still RNG meant most of it was garbage.

That was primarily why Blizzard introduced the Mystic NPC who had the ability to take an item from you, you selected a stat to reroll and for a fee would roll it through the RNG machine again. You could do this as many times as you liked but each time the cost was a little higher. This helped solve partially the problem so that a semi-perfect crafted item with 1 wrong stat could be rerolled and maybe that 1 wrong stat would come out good.

TL/DR
- Diablo 3 had up to 8 stats per item, all subject to RNG from a pool of around 30-40 affixes. This meant to craft something useful was very, very unlikely and it wasn't a fun process.
- Took 3 iterations and a major expansion to change this to something enjoyable. You as a player can now pick 1 stat and reroll it (for a fee)
- Even today most items that drop are garbage, but it's better than it used to be.

D3's problem wasn't the RNG, but a garbage stat system to begin with.

 

[kofeyh]

I've not watched the stream yet, but to be able to choose the 'special effect' desired would be grand. "I want this-and-this to do that-and-that" ... "OK! But, turns out that you got a teapot instead..." - isn't really cutting it. If I want a flamethrower, I'm not satisfied with a calculator instead.

If we have to expend materials to find out what the magic wheel of mod fortune grants us, it's going to be a bit silly. I should be able to have a decent understanding of what I am about to buy, before I buy it. Last I saw, we get sort of some idea, then we throw materials in the air and maybe the outcome is okay. Or not, at which point you are down materials and are back to spinning the mod wheel of fortune again.

I get what frontier are trying to do (introduce a limited degree of variety in outcomes) but this is going to be exceedingly frustrating as people burn through hours (or more) of collected 'stuff'. It's effectively materials and rare item gambling.

 

[Dweezil_Moon]

let the player set the sliders themselves, as you boost somethings, others go down. The higher your ranking, the more you are allowed to fiddle.

The result would be multiple websites stating exactly how players should set the sliders to max the results, which will result in everybody but the most eccentric having exactly the same build (again) and making this feature just a pure time sink. cue posts about "could we please get rid of the sliders. they add nothing to the game anyway".
Keep the RNG I say.

 

[excalibus]

For the people wanting 'batch engineering'

Consider engine blueprinting for a moment... To blueprint an engine is to have every part within a set of extra fine tolerances from the 'design' instead of the standard tolerances... When you blueprint an engine you may well go through approximately 9 to 12 complete sets of internal components to get 1 set that falls within the extra fine tolerances, both with weight, pressure (in the case of springs and injectors) and clearance specifications in all dimensions of the component. Now you can blueprint one motor and it might give you an extra 85HP over the original design spec, and then you blueprint another identical motor and only get an extra 84HP on the dyno... This is because of small variations still within that fine tolerance...


I am a hobbyist machinist and metal caster and I can tell you I can make parts on my lathe or mill to within the standard design tolerances of projects I am often asked to machine of 2 thousandths of an inch, I recently made a batch of parts for someone, and every single part was within the design tolerances, not any single part would have been completely and utterly identical to another part in every dimension. I can also make parts to within 0.5 thou (or 5/10,000ths of an inch) but to do so will often require taking more than 1 attempt at it and involves a lot more time and 'effort' to making the same part within the standard 2 thou tolerances...

Heck I can tell you with 100% certainty even in todays highest grade automated manufacturing processes, they struggle to get 'exact' parts to a given design, this is why there is always 'tolerances' involved, yes even the best CNC machine will not process 100 parts and end up with 100 parts completely identical in every dimension, there are many variables involved, and don't get me started on the potential differences in 'lasers' or LED's from the same batch or even the humber resistor... There is a reason why there are standard spec components and military spec components and the only difference between them usually is the tolerance percentage.

So in the future of 3302, I would think an 'engineer' using the materials you have supplied as best as they can, there will be some disparity between materials so there should always be some minor variations between how a modification turns out

 

[anikaiful]

If we have to expend materials to find out what the magic wheel of mod fortune grants us, it's going to be a bit silly. I should be able to have a decent understanding of what I am about to buy, before I buy it. Last I saw, we get sort of some idea, then we throw materials in the air and maybe the outcome is okay. Or not, at which point you are down materials and are back to spinning the mod wheel of fortune again.

I get what frontier are trying to do (introduce a limited degree of variety in outcomes) but this is going to be exceedingly frustrating as people burn through hours (or more) of collected 'stuff'. It's effectively materials and rare item gambling.

I'm fine with RNG for "secondary stats" as long as I get the primary effect I desire. But if everything is going to be RNG, well... shucks...